Gender again. Sorry!

[AndyRM]

Can you point us to a case where a minor, or at least somebody under 16, has had 'bottom' surgery?

Hormones, or at least those to defer puberty, are a different question and raise their own moral and scientific questions.

Kim Petras was, I believe, 16 and had gender confirmation surgery.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Susie Green, former head of Mermaids, took her male born child to Thailand so they could could be castrated and have their penis inverted as soon as they were 16. By her own admission, the child's father found it difficult to cope with having a feminine son. She's actually joked that the surgery was difficult because puberty blockers meant there wasn't much penile tissue to work with.

Jazz Jennings had genital removal surgery at 17. Had since had 2 further revisions apparently.

Reuters analysis of US insurance claims suggests 56 'bottom' surgeries on 13 to 27 year olds in the 3 years analysed, ie penis and testicle removal, and 776 double mastectomies on 13 to 17 year old children. These are only the insurance paid for ones; many prescriptions and surgeries will be paid for privately.

Data on the increase in diagnoses in recent years. Again, these are only the ones paid for by insurance, not the patients who pay privately.

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-transyouth-data/


Isn't it funny how these ancient 'transgender' groups like the Hijra in India and the Fa'afafine in Samoa are almost exclusively feminine gay males? Not teenage girls or middle aged women. Just men that are gay or non conforming. Almost like their societies invented another category of personhood so they could chuck them out of the 'Men' category, but didn't hate them quite enough to actually call them women. It's a handy way of 'othering' gay men, isn't it?

The Prime Minister of Samoa famously called Laurel Hubbard a man, so it doesn't sound like these cultures see western transwomen as the same as the likes of the Fa'afafine at all.

 

[multitool]

I think you are being *slightly* unfair here.
There is a clear difference between the history of men living as women and the modern movement of transgenderism where medicine has progressed to a level that surgical alteration and hormone treatment can be used.

I don't think that the issue would be anywhere near as problematic if it were not for surgical and hormonal interventions being offered to people who are *very* young. If 14 year old Tim wants to live as Tammy and wear a dress, it would raise a few eyebrows. If, on the other hand, Tim wants to have his penis removed, a vagina constructed and take hormone treatment before he has even finished puberty, that should raise child protection and mental health concerns IMHO. These are not things to be done on a whim. (Same applies to Tammy who wants to become Tim and have her breasts removed and a penis constructed and who may be left in lifelong pain).

Historically the only surgical intervention available was castration which, a lot of the time, resulted in death and wouldn't leave you looking like a lady, but like a Eunuch.

I think the 'phobes seize on medical interventions of the young in the way that racists seize on paedophile groomers who happen to be Muslim.

They aren't really interested in the child's welfare for two reasons. Firstly because they just aren't...they are purely exploiting children to fuel their own obsessive cult beliefs, and secondly because they won't enter into the discussion as to whether surgery/hormones might possibly be in the interest of the children's health. They fixate on alleged 'detransitioners', to support their notion that all trans people will regret any interventions, whilst ignoring the vast majority who do not detransition. They, the 'phobes, come at this with zero expertise or experience and yet they privilege their own ignorance over the people who do care for trans youth.

Above all, trans health care is bound to be problematic, but it isn't helped by the myths and bare-faced lies spread by the hate-o-phobes.

 

[icowden]

and secondly because they won't enter into the discussion as to whether surgery/hormones might possibly be in the interest of the children's health.

They aren't. Things that are in the interest of your health are to restore that which is diseased or broken. Voluntary self-mutilation is not in the interest of anybody. There are numerous accounts of those who have deeply regretted the surgical intervention they had.

This goes back to whether being you agree that trans is magical fairy dust applied at birth or a mental health issue that develops over time.

 

[multitool]

They aren't. Things that are in the interest of your health are to restore that which is diseased or broken. Voluntary self-mutilation is not in the interest of anybody. There are numerous accounts of those who have deeply regretted the surgical intervention they had.

This goes back to whether being you agree that trans is magical fairy dust applied at birth or a mental health issue that develops over time.

In fact it could be either or both. It doesn't really matter. What matters is that the 'patient' finds some way of relieving their trauma and living a happier life...even if it causes consternation amongst a vociferous handful of puritanical bigots.

 

[AuroraSaab]

.... and secondly because they won't enter into the discussion as to whether surgery/hormones might possibly be in the interest of the children's health.

Most children with body dysphoria find it resolves by early adulthood if there is therapy instead of puberty blockers, cross sex hormones, and surgery. Why on earth sanction irreversible drugs and surgery for an issue that resolves with time and therapy?

What health condition justifies a double mastectomy at 14? Or castration at 16? Children of that age cannot understand the long term implications of such surgery and a lifetime of medication. I doubt many body dysphoric young adults can make an informed decision on sterilisation at 18 either.

They fixate on alleged 'detransitioners', to support their notion that all trans people will regret any interventions, whilst ignoring the vast majority who do not detransition.

Alleged? There are many of them, many transitioned as children others as adults. There are no good quality studies on how many detransition or on regret rates. The Tavistock didn't even do follow ups to find out. The Reddit detransitioner forum has 20k plus members.

They, the 'phobes, come at this with zero expertise or experience and yet they privilege their own ignorance over the people who do care for trans youth.

Yet having reviewed the evidence so many European countries have pulled back from treating under 18's with anything other than therapy. No puberty blockers, no cross sex hormones, no surgery for under 18's..... but you know better than the medics, researchers, and scientists from the UK, Sweden, Denmark. Even the Dutch who pioneered transing kids are walking it back.

There are also plenty of parents who are talking about their children going through a phase of body dysphoria but coming out of it.

Above all, trans health care is bound to be problematic, but it isn't helped by the myths and bare-faced lies spread by the hate-o-phobes.

Yes, performing unnecessary maestectomies and castration for a mental health issue is problematic. Just like lobotomies and electro convulsive therapy were also miracle cures and then turned out to be 'problematic'.

Famous hate-o-phobes include Dr Hilary Cass and the heads of half of Europe's medical authorities ...... These people have zero expertise obviously...

 

[multitool]

Most children with body dysphoria find it resolves by early adulthood if there is therapy instead of puberty blockers, cross sex hormones, and surgery. Why on earth sanction irreversible drugs and surgery for an issue that resolves with time and therapy?

And most children, in fact almost no children with body dysphoria are offered surgery or hormones.

Those that are consist of really extreme cases.

But sure, keep pumping out this myth that hormones are handed out like smarties and no sooner had children walked through the door of the Tavi they were having their bits cut off.

 

[Bromptonaut]

What health condition justifies a double mastectomy at 14? Or castration at 16? Children of that age cannot understand the long term implications of such surgery and a lifetime of medication. I doubt many body dysphoric young adults can make an informed decision on sterilisation at 18 either.

Let me try again.

Has anybody in the UK had a mastectomy for the purpose of gender reassignment as young as 14?

Reports suggest a tiny number had surgery post 16 but pre 18. One at 16 was said to be in Thailand.

16-18 year olds bring us into the territory of Gillick Competence which was explored at length in the Keira Bell case.

IIRC that came down eventually on the basis that a young person might be Gillick competent for surgery at 16.

 

[icowden]

And most children, in fact almost no children with body dysphoria are offered surgery or hormones.
Those that are consist of really extreme cases.

771 of them in the US alone according to the stats posted by @AuroraSaab
771 is a lot more than almost none.

But sure, keep pumping out this myth that hormones are handed out like smarties and no sooner had children walked through the door of the Tavi they were having their bits cut off.

No-one is suggesting that. It's interesting that you can't talk about this topic without having to use extreme straw men.

 

[classic33]

Most children with body dysphoria find it resolves by early adulthood if there is therapy instead of puberty blockers, cross sex hormones, and surgery. Why on earth sanction irreversible drugs and surgery for an issue that resolves with time and therapy?

What health condition justifies a double mastectomy at 14? Or castration at 16? Children of that age cannot understand the long term implications of such surgery and a lifetime of medication. I doubt many body dysphoric young adults can make an informed decision on sterilisation at 18 either.

And yet there are surgeons who will operate on a child, in the hope (There are no guarantees) that the surgery might alleviate their physical suffering. Then combine it with a lifetime of medication to alleviate the problem that have arisen as a result of the surgery*. These children are accepted as being able to understand what the outcome will actually mean to them.

Many see no further than their own suffering, and the promises that the surgery, and medication afterwards will make their problems disappear. Most adults when offered the same surgery often only see it a cure. It isn't, there's no guarantees, and you may just end up worse off.

*Brain surgery for epilepsy, seems to be coming back into fashion. It's supposed to be a two year process. I know of cases where it's been cut down to less than three months, with tragic consequence's where there's been no second chance.

 

[multitool]

771 of them in the US alone according to the stats posted by @AuroraSaab
771 is a lot more than almost none.


No-one is suggesting that. It's interesting that you can't talk about this topic without having to use extreme straw men.

I never take AS's 'stats' at face value. I check them all, because she accrues them from fanatic sites. But it's a sunny day, and I can't be arsed.

It's hardly a straw man.

 

[mudsticks]

Isn't it funny how these ancient 'transgender' groups like the Hijra in India and the Fa'afafine in Samoa are almost exclusively feminine gay males? Not teenage girls or middle aged women. Just men that are gay or non conforming. Almost like their societies invented another category of personhood so they could chuck them out of the 'Men' category, but didn't hate them quite enough to actually call them women. It's a handy way of 'othering' gay men, isn't it?

The Prime Minister of Samoa famously called Laurel Hubbard a man, so it doesn't sound like these cultures see western transwomen as the same as the likes of the Fa'afafine at all.

I think there's definitely a case to be made for saying that all patriachal societies have marginalised and or oppressed non conforming males, in various ways, over the years

'Macho men' types were, and in some cases - Andrew Tate et al - still are, held up as the default and 'best' 🙄 type of man.

Any other sort whether gay, non conforming, cross dressing, or even more trad feminine behaving man needs to be told he is 'wrong' in some way, and shuffled off to the sidelines, avoided, demonised, and even got rid of by death in extreme cases.

All this is still evident in how men and 'masculinity' are talked about, and even performed, in many parts of our and other societies.

Of course anyone would be concerned that the psychological and medical help available for kids with body disphoria is of the highest quality, I think all that goes without saying.

But from personal experience I don't think that the transwomen I know are 'repressed gays' .
They wouldn't have had any bother coming out as gay in the circles they move in, nor been given a hard time for old fashioned cross dressing.
.
There's definitely, genuinely, something else going on for them.
I can't quite pretend that I fully grasp it .

Except maybe as a definite reverse of having any kind of feeling like that myself.

I definitely feel* like a woman, and don't have any doubts about it.
Despite spending a lot of my time doing non trad female stuff, and largely avoiding the 'trad' feminised activities - I've never felt like I was in the 'wrong' body - more that maybe society had on occasion rather limited ideas about how I should live as a woman - but I never felt it was my body that was the problem - the problems were external to me.

But the transwomen I know do genuinely feel something other than just wanting to be 'non trad' male - or gay.
They could do that anyhow, no bother, certainly a lot less 'bother' than being trans.

So I choose to believe them, and respect how they wish to identify and live, as I don't think they'd put themselves through all that hassle for no deep seated reason.

*I know that in itself is 'subjective' as I only know how I feel, but therein lies part of the 'trouble'

 

[AuroraSaab]

And most children, in fact almost no children with body dysphoria are offered surgery or hormones.

Those that are consist of really extreme cases.

What are puberty blockers then? They are routinely prescribed to children from 11 at gender clinics, or were until they realised the evidence base was poor. They are still available through private providers.

But sure, keep pumping out this myth that hormones are handed out like smarties and no sooner had children walked through the door of the Tavi they were having their bits cut off.

Kerala Bell had 3 one hour appointments before receiving hormones. Struck off Gender GP boss Michael Webberley gave them out after a diagnosis based on a questionnaire and without appropriate evaluation or tests. You can still get them privately with not much trouble in the UK. In the US it's near enough on demand, in the states that haven't banned them.

Regardless of age, all people with body dysphoria surely deserve better care than the automatic affirmation model. The meds and surgical route should be a last resort after lengthy exploratory therapy to ensure underlying issues are addressed.

I never take AS's 'stats' at face value. I check them all, because she accrues them from fanatic sites. But it's a sunny day, and I can't be arsed.

It's hardly a straw man.

Yeah, Reuters News, founded in 1851, that well known fanatic site.

 

[multitool]

Struck off Gender GP boss Michael Webberley gave them out after a diagnosis based on a questionnaire and without appropriate evaluation or tests.

As ever, with Aurora you need to check everything she says and parse it for lies.

https://inews.co.uk/news/how-a-gp-r...ns-patients-overturned-her-suspension-2270604

Not struck off. High Court ruled prescriptions had been in line with NHS Guidance and pronounced that the Medical Board had "confused thinking" and were wrong in their actions against Dr Helen* Webberly

Aurora's transhate is now extended to referring to trans people by their previous names. What a twunt.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Lmao. I mean, properly laughing at this. Screenshot at the end just in case Multi deletes. So glad I checked back on this thread. Multi thinks two different doctors are in fact the same person, because they are both called Webberley. So in his logic, it's the same person just pre and post transition. He's mistaken two separate individuals as being a single transwoman....

As ever, with Aurora you need to check everything she says and parse it for lies.
https://inews.co.uk/news/how-a-gp-r...ns-patients-overturned-her-suspension-2270604
Not struck off. High Court ruled prescriptions had been in line with NHS Guidance and pronounced that the Medical Board had "confused thinking" and were wrong in their actions against Dr Helen* Webberly

That is his wife. He's called Michael, she's called Helen. He's a retired gastroenterologist. She was a GP. Neither are professionally trained to deal with body dysphoric children. Together they run/ran Gender GP - now run from abroad I believe - a private company giving out private prescriptions for puberty blockers and hormones. Michael was struck off. One charge involved giving meds to a 9 year old without proper assessment. One of his patients killed themselves. Helen was suspended, later allowed back to practise.

Aurora's transhate is now extended to referring to trans people by their previous names. What a twunt.

The fact that you don't know anything about the Webberleys and thought that Helen and Michael are the same trans person - and that Helen Webberley is a transwoman and I'm dead naming them - is not only hilarious but proves you know absolutely nothing, I mean zero, about gender medicine in the UK and the what's happening in the care of dysphoric children.