Gender again. Sorry!

[classic33]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/67336536

In other news, Caster Semenya was interviewed this morning. I haven't heard the full thing, but what the Beeb have put on their website is interesting reading.

Fair play to her. She's not willing to let anyone drag her down for being different.

 

[icowden]

In other news, Caster Semenya was interviewed this morning. I haven't heard the full thing, but what the Beeb have put on their website is interesting reading.

And troubling reading:-

"For me I believe if you are a woman, you are a woman," said Semenya, who won Olympic 800m gold in 2012 and 2016 and is a three-time world champion over the same distance.

Sorry Semenya - belief ain't worth a tuppeny bit. It basically reads as "it's unfair that I'm not allowed to win any more just because it would be unfair to let me do that".

The final paragraph is the key:-

A spokesperson told the BBC: "World Athletics has 15 years of data, observations and information directly from DSD athletes in our own sport that show high testosterone levels do provide an unfair advantage in the female category - and that our guidelines on testosterone thresholds are necessary, reasonable, and proportionate in our aim to protect the integrity of the female category."

Surely as a woman she should be supporting fairness in women's athletics. But no - it's all "me me me".

 

[icowden]

Fair play to her. She's not willing to let anyone drag her down for being different.

But she doesn't care about being unfair to other women.

 

[monkers]

I'm starting to think you are being deliberately obtuse. The graph for 2006 to 2022 is only categorised as male / female. This is not least because trans data was not recorded until about 2016. The graph for 2021/22 is male / female / other and unknown. As you point out the grey bar is tiny. This is not because trans people don't offend. This is because the graph is not a percentage, it's volume of arrests and there are many fewer "others" than male or female.

That doesn't matter of course, because the point of the graphs is to back up the claim, that men offend more than women, particularly violent crime.

Aurora followed up with another table for a single year with a more detailed breakdown. It showed none categorised as 'other'. That is my point - do you disagree?

 

[monkers]

Transwomen are statistically at least the same risk as other males. It's you who seek for them to be treated differently to other men, whether it's regarding safety, or simply the privacy and discomfort of women.

You really need to stop this pretence.

Various statements from you have said, there is no data, or the data is flawed, or Cruella said this or that. Now you are back to using this data that you say is flawed is the evidence. You need to make your mind up. Is the data reliable, or is it flawed?

You can not use the lack of data to prove a point, only a presence of reliable data. You do get that, don't you?

The Swedish Study does not provide the evidence either. One of the authors has actually said that the study is not evidence that trans people commit rape as pretended by Stock and others.

 

[AndyRM]

And troubling reading:-


Sorry Semenya - belief ain't worth a tuppeny bit. It basically reads as "it's unfair that I'm not allowed to win any more just because it would be unfair to let me do that".

The final paragraph is the key:-


Surely as a woman she should be supporting fairness in women's athletics. But no - it's all "me me me".

She took/takes testosterone suppressants. The powers that be changed the rules while she was competing and she complied with them as far I'm aware. I think she's justified in feeling victimised.

As I've said before, there are all kinds of reasons for chemical imbalances in bodies. Does that make her any less of a woman? Not for me.

 

[monkers]

But she doesn't care about being unfair to other women.

So from what you've said, she is a woman, but you still support the idea that she should not compete against 'other women', because that would be unfair.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Yes it is. Look at the colour code in the key - grey equals other. This means that the data is sorted by male, female, other and unknown.

The table of results has no grey stripe - this means that within the collected data there were no people who were other. The only interpretation is that no trans people had involvement, or were so few in number that the line was so thin as to be invisible.

No, the very obvious interpretation is that transpeople were recorded in the Male or Female category (whether by birth sex or chosen gender identity). Do you seriously think all UK police forces are recording all trans people as 'Other'? Or that no transgender people at all were arrested in the UK in 2021 or 2022?

Suella Braverman doesn't compile the police statistics by the way.

From the news article:

"Hundreds of suspected rapists are said to have been wrongly labelled as women in CPS referrals - despite Suella Braverman telling police not to do so.

Over the past four years, police referred 260 “females” to the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) to consider a rape charge, figures obtained under freedom of information laws revealed.

A further 209 suspects were said to have been recorded with an “unknown” sex, which is understood to include non-binary people, according to the data shared with the Telegraph. By law, rape can only be committed by a biological male.
The CPS revealed that, since 2019, about 1.5 per cent of rape suspects referred for a charging decision were recorded by police as “female” and around 1.2 per cent “unknown”.

The number of alleged rapists with an “unknown” gender increased from around one or two a year 10 years ago to 71 referrals last year".

As rape in UK law can only be commited by a male, what is the likely birth sex of these 260 'female' alleged rapists? Or the birth sex of the 208 'Other sex' or non binary alleged rapists? The stats are already being skewed and distorted.

 

[monkers]

She took/takes testosterone suppressants. The powers that be changed the rules while she was competing and she complied with them as far I'm aware. I think she's justified in feeling victimised.

As I've said before, there are all kinds of reasons for chemical imbalances in bodies. Does that make her any less of a woman? Not for me.

Same thing happened to Emily Bridges. They notified her of their decision to exclude her the day before the first race of the season.

 

[monkers]

No, the very obvious interpretation is that transpeople were recorded in the Male or Female category (whether by birth sex or chosen gender identity). Do you seriously think all UK police forces are recording all trans people as 'Other'? Or that no transgender people at all were arrested in the UK in 2021 or 2022?

Suella Braverman doesn't compile the police statistics by the way.

From the news article:

"Hundreds of suspected rapists are said to have been wrongly labelled as women in CPS referrals - despite Suella Braverman telling police not to do so.

Over the past four years, police referred 260 “females” to the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) to consider a rape charge, figures obtained under freedom of information laws revealed.

A further 209 suspects were said to have been recorded with an “unknown” sex, which is understood to include non-binary people, according to the data shared with the Telegraph. By law, rape can only be committed by a biological male.
The CPS revealed that, since 2019, about 1.5 per cent of rape suspects referred for a charging decision were recorded by police as “female” and around 1.2 per cent “unknown”.

The number of alleged rapists with an “unknown” gender increased from around one or two a year 10 years ago to 71 referrals last year".

As rape in UK law can conly be commited by a male, what is the likely birth sex of these 260 'female' alleged rapists? Or the birth sex of the 208 'Other sex' or non binary alleged rapists? The stats are already being skewed and distorted.

So the data was good all the time you believed you could make it to prove a point, all the time 'knowing' that the data was flawed. But you are the good faith actor, right?

 

[AuroraSaab]

She took/takes testosterone suppressants. The powers that be changed the rules while she was competing and she complied with them as far I'm aware. I think she's justified in feeling victimised.

It should never have been allowed to get to this stage. The IOC were far too slow to address the issue when it first arose years ago. They have let down both dsd athletes, by giving them false hope, and the women who compete against them by allowing unfair advantage.

 

[AndyRM]

It should never have been allowed to get to this stage. The IOC were far too slow to address the issue when it first arose years ago. They have let down both dsd athletes, by giving them false hope, and the women who compete against them by allowing unfair advantage.

It's not the first time the IOC have made a total hash of things, and I doubt it will be the last.

 

[AuroraSaab]

So the data was good all the time you believed you could make it to prove a point, all the time 'knowing' that the data was flawed. But you are the good faith actor, right?

The data is flawed, but flawed as it is, it still overwhelmingly shows that crime in general is a male pursuit, and especially sex crime and violent crime. Arrests for prostitution and not having a TV license are the exceptions.

 

[monkers]

The data is flawed, but flawed as it is, it still overwhelmingly shows that crime in general is a male pursuit, and especially sex crime and violent crime. Arrests for prostitution and not having a TV license are the exceptions.

But the data that you presented in support of your argument does not show that trans women were implicated. It just shows that men and women were.

I'm happy to agree to the argument that we can not know how many trans women are arrested or convicted if the data is not collected. I can not agree that this means that there is evidence that trans women are implicated - that argument is vexatious.

My niece is aware of an historic allegation of rape by a trans woman. It's an interesting case.

The woman had a four year relationship with a man that ended some twelve years ago. She has since discovered that this man is now transitioning. The man never told her that he has always felt trans, and that is not the given reason for the end of the relationship.

She says that 'he' had never declared to her that he had a female gender identity and now feels 'violated' - so she is saying this is rape, despite the point that all sex was consensual. This case opens many other questions about motives by the parties in other cases that have not been asked in courts.

I have used pronouns contemporaneously in an attempt to clarify.

 

[monkers]

The data is flawed, but flawed as it is, it still overwhelmingly shows that crime in general is a male pursuit, and especially sex crime and violent crime. Arrests for prostitution and not having a TV license are the exceptions.

Prostitution is not illegal in the UK, so what are you saying? Also not having a TV licence is not an offence.