Gender again. Sorry!

[monkers]

As i said, nothing to do with trans.

The Same Sex Marriage Act allowed same sex marriages. If someone is going to insist they are a woman and get a certificate to prove it, then it holds that they could only legally marry someone of the opposite sex.

The Act allowed Gay and Lesbian marriages. A transwoman marrying a woman is just a normal marriage unless you have a bit of paper which then specifically prevented it. This is why there is a whole wormhole of discussion around whether becoming a transwoman now means you are a lesbian if you still like women. Many lesbians take quite a lot of issue with this.

Oh dear! I'll just put you down as 'confused'.

 

[monkers]

Many lesbians take quite a lot of issue with this.

How many of us take quite a lot issue with this? And how many of us don't? As a gay woman I don't to be told be some lesbian women who I should date and who I should not.

 

[AuroraSaab]

True or not - it does not lead to a conclusion that trans women cause harm to other women. A lack of evidence is not evidence. It's a vexatious claim.

There is similar lack of evidence that men who like waistcoats cause harm to women. Or that men who own labradors cause harm to women. The relevant factor for safeguarding isn't fashion choices, dog ownership, or how you personally feel about yourself. We treat all these men the same in regards to safeguarding and the privacy and dignity of women and girls. In 600 pages all you have done is claim that there are a subset of special men to whom this should not apply.

 

[monkers]

There is similar lack of evidence that men who like waistcoats cause harm to women. Or that men who own labradors cause harm to women.

No there isn't, so it's only fair that you call these people rapists and paedophiles too. That would be classy wouldn't it?

 

[monkers]

The relevant factor for safeguarding isn't fashion choices, dog ownership, or how you personally feel about yourself. We treat all these men the same in regards to safeguarding and the privacy and dignity of women and girls. In 600 pages all you have done is claim that there are a subset of special men to whom this should not apply.

Oh I thought gender identity was just a trend, a social contagion like the wearing of crocs? So are there crimes against fashion or not?

Evidence. Show me the evidence that trans women are a danger to women.

Repeats wearily, ''a lack of evidence, is not evidence''.

Clearly you have no evidence, or you wouldn't be typing this rubbish about waistcoats and labradors.

 

[monkers]

all you have done is claim that there are a subset of special men to whom this should not apply.

Again, you are being untruthful.

What I have done is told you repeatedly that trans women with a GRC are legally women and legally female. If you see a trans woman in a public loo, leave her alone as she is not breaking the law. The harassment of a trans woman in a public loo is an offence.

 

[AuroraSaab]

So you've made up your mind that this was a case of rape. The case hasn't been heard yet. The victim agrees the sex was consensual.

You called it an allegation of rape, which suggests the law are involved. It's you who has decided it calls the motives of other rape victims into question.
So at the moment it's yet another of your anecdotes ....

If gender identity is not a thing as you tend to say, that trans women are men as you tend to say; how can it be that consensual sex between a man and woman twelve years ago is suddenly now to be considered rape?

I asked you for a link so we could decide for ourselves. As you're now saying it wasn't a court case, until we see the evidence nobody can make a judgement. I didn't say it was or wasn't rape.

Neither can we draw your conclusion that this anecdote calls into question the motives of other girls and women who have been the victim of transwomen rapists.

 

[Bromptonaut]

Prostitution is not illegal in the UK, so what are you saying? Also not having a TV licence is not an offence.

Prostitution itself is not an offence but pretty much anything associated with it is - soliciting for example.

I thought watching TV without a licence was too, it certainly used to be and indeed a quick check shows it still is. The tories wanted to de-criminalise it to hamstring the BBC by forcing them to chase it through the County Court but I think the idea dies along with Nadine Dorries' political career.

 

[monkers]

You called it an allegation of rape, which suggests the law are involved. It's you who has decided it calls the motives of other rape victims into question.
So at the moment it's yet another of your anecdotes ....

Maybe in saying it is 'an interesting case' I gave you the impression that this was a legal case in progress. If so, I should have considered the use of the word 'case' more carefully as I intended it only in a more general sense.

At this stage, the woman is not pressing charges. She has not made a complaint to the police, but has been asking for legal advice in order to pursue a civil case for damages.

What was interesting was your leap that sex between these two partners is deemed to be rape despite all sex being consensual, and despite the fact that there has been no trial.

 

[AuroraSaab]

No there isn't, so it's only fair that you call these people rapists and paedophiles too. That would be classy wouldn't it?

If they are male they are a safeguarding risk to women and girls simply by being male. And their maleness also makes women feel uncomfortable and vulnerable in certain situations. Apart from one or 2 obvious exceptions, every man reading this forum knows that and respects it by going out of their way not to make women and girls feel uncomfortable.

 

[monkers]

If they are male they are a safeguarding risk to women and girls simply by being male. And their maleness also makes women feel uncomfortable and vulnerable in certain situations. Apart from one or 2 obvious exceptions, every man reading this forum knows that and respects it by going out of their way not to make women and girls feel uncomfortable.

Two words - 'risk assessment'.

A risk assessment requires an evidence-based approach.

Also trans women with a GRC are women under the law. They are not going 'out of their way to make women and girls feel uncomfortable' - they just need to piss.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Maybe in saying it is 'an interesting case' I gave you the impression that this was a legal case in progress. If so, I should have considered the use of the word 'case' more carefully as I intended it only in a more general sense.

Yet another anecdote presented as evidence then.

What was interesting was your leap that sex between these two partners is deemed to be rape despite all sex being consensual, and despite the fact that there has been no trial.

I didn't say it was rape. I asked for a link to the court case to assess the evidence for ourselves. Then funnily enough all of a sudden you've admitted it's an anecdote.

Let's see the news/court report link so we can look at your anecdotal 'It was consensual' case so we can decide for ourselves.

 

[monkers]

Prostitution itself is not an offence but pretty much anything associated with it is - soliciting for example.

I thought watching TV without a licence was too, it certainly used to be and indeed a quick check shows it still is. The tories wanted to de-criminalise it to hamstring the BBC by forcing them to chase it through the County Court but I think the idea dies along with Nadine Dorries' political career.

I agree in all you say. In GB receiving money for sex is not an offence. In NI paying for sex is an offence. So in neither case is it true that women can be arrested for prostitution. As you say, there are offences around coercion and control such as pimping and trafficking.

I had a little fun with a little pedantry around the TV licence issue. AS said illegal not to have a TV licence - which of course is not true. Again we agree, it is an offence to watch live television without a licence for those premises, or to watch content available on BBC iplayer. This causes me to wonder, if it is legal to watch live TV on a smartphone in a public place without a licence? But it's very off-topic and I'm certainly no expert and not legally trained.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Two words - 'risk assessment'.

A risk assessment requires an evidence-based approach.

Crime stats provide that evidence on male risk in abundance. You have failed to provide evidence that transwomen should be treated any differently from other men.

Also trans women with a GRC are women under the law. They are not going 'out of their way to make women and girls feel uncomfortable' - they just need to piss.

Which they can do just as easily in enclosed gender neutral toilets, unisex third spaces, or indeed in the Gents - because women are just as violent as men according to you so they'll be just as safe in the Gents as in the Ladies.

(Once again though, as we all know... it's not really about toilets)

 

[monkers]

Yet another anecdote presented as evidence then.

I didn't say it was evidence of anything, just that I found it interesting. Apparently you found it interesting enough to reply to and immediately label the former man in this a 'rapist'.

I tend to think that the woman is a gold-digger, but opinions may and will vary.