The thread is the perfect illustration of the very point missing from the discussion - over 60 pages and more than 900 post in.
I'm not aware of any contributors themselves being trans.
This so-called debate is not the battle between trans people and cis people as often thought. Indeed not, it is a battle between the beliefs of groups of cis people with varying beliefs. Broadly there are two groups; the feminists to the left, and the gender critical people from the right. It is not that all feminists are trans exclusionary, nor are the groupings from the right - but gender critical people from various parts of the political spectrum have joined forces.
Perhaps in this context, people might begin to understand the frustration of the trans community, they are not often invited to 'the debate', they are left voiceless unless they themselves become noisy, and when they do they tend to be condemned for being so.
The media are not helpful to the discussion, they relish sensationalism. The headlines say it all. Witness they sensationalism and thirst for anti-cycling propaganda!
The polarisation on this topic is inevitable and as unfathomable to some as the God Paradox. You know God can do anything so he can lift anything; God can do anything so he can make a mountain so heavy that even God can't lift it. God doesn't leave clues though on how to figure this one out; so maybe not quite as perfect as some think? Whatever, please don't get exercised on the point, it's just an imperfect analogy.
For some the so-called 'trans debate' is consciously or unconsciously linked to their 'belief' or their 'indoctrination' depending upon your paradigm - no disrespect intended to folks whatever their religious beliefs happen to be. Remember it's just an imperfect analogy.
So we get to the reality of 'listen to the scientists' which places it precisely in the so-called 'climate change debate'. People can believe what they wish to believe on the one hand; can say whatever they like on the other. yada yada.
What the scientists say is subject to some variation depending upon their specialism. Some like to mention Robert Winston, an undoubtedly clever chap in his field; his speciality being reproductive sex and associated stuff. He says that trans people can not change sex. That's actually not that contentious. It's believed that trans people tend to say that they can. But that isn't true. Trans people as a group of people tend to be quite well-informed on these matters as you might expect. They do not say that they change biological sex, but they change their recorded sex.
Where trans people take umbrage though is Winston's other words, saying that trans people just mangle and mutilate their bodies- which I think goes beyond 'saying it as it is'. When feminists are up in arms about body shaming they tend to be sincere, but the principle sometimes tends to evaporate when talking about trans people.
Gender critical people believe that 'sex in binary and immutable'. Modern scientist who are specialists in this field say that it really isn't. Reproductive sex is not binary since there are people who do not entirely fit into the male and female categories. These people have a range of anatomical variations that relate to anatomy, chromosome variation, etc. These people may be termed intersex or mosaic - but these people need to be listened to and addressed appropriately.
Forgive me for saying, and I'll not call people out, but some people are somewhat confused with the linguistic terms. That doesn't surprise me since they do not make absolute sense.
First point to note is that the term 'trans' is misused. In correct usage we ought say trans woman, trans man, trans person, trans people, etc.
Therefore transwoman, transman, transperson, transpeople, are incorrect. It's a difference with a distinction. 'Trans' and 'cis' are not alternative suffixes to the word gender, they are adjectives.
When people say 'trans women are women' they are quoting the law that protects their human rights; they are not pretending that they are cis women.
'Transsexual' is now an outmoded term. Previously 'gender dysphoria' was considered to be a mental health condition. 'Transsexual was the medical diagnostic term. The World Health Organisation considered this later. Their panel of experts agreed that gender dysphoria is not a mental health condition, but that a person with GD may as a result to go on to have a mental health condition if GD is not ameliorated.
When parliament passed the Gender Recognition Act in 2004, the old world thinking prevailed. Accordingly there is terminology in the act that requires refreshment.
When it comes to gender dysphoria there is no test, no medical test, no psychiatric test. Those people who are committed to being disparaging to trans people might point to this and say 'told you it's all in their heads'. This is an unnecessary statement; we all are who we think we are in our heads. For none of us does this exist anywhere else. It's not a fanciful irrelevance, it is our self-knowledge. It is owed respect as we collectively have a human right to exist with dignity.
When trans people attend gender clinics they are asked endless intrusive questions, often irrelevant questions about frequency of masturbation when a teenager, sexual fantasies on reaching puberty etc. At no point is there any diagnosis. The diagnosis is simply does this person continue to express their self-knowledge that their innate sense of gender is at odds with their sex recorded at birth. And that's it!
In other words gender is always self-declared.
A problem word is 'transgender'. It's problematic for a number of reasons.
1 It's spelt with the 'trans' part as a suffix rather than an adjective like other trans terms.
2 If a person undergoes transition, their gender is confirmed not changed as the term implies.
3 It's an umbrella term that includes not just trans people, but transvestites, crossdressers, etc.
4 It's used in different ways in different parts of the world.
5 It lends itself to the form 'transgendered' which is in turn problematic for a number of reasons, but essentially it suggest that to be trans is to experience an enforced change by something external to the person.
I'll continue this later.
I'll gladly respond to questions on the condition that the questioner is polite.
