Gender again. Sorry!

[monkers]

No - he is reported as having commented. You will notice that wiki has no citation for this.

Except you failed to spot that I had already said, 'according to accounts'.

Why is it that you never bother to read, but start bashing the keyboard like a drunken crazed chimp?

 

[icowden]

Except you failed to spot that I had already said, 'according to accounts'.
Why is it that you never bother to read, but start bashing the keyboard like a drunken crazed chimp?

You need to look up what you said:-

I'm not able to say who the first people were to have a gender identity incongruent with their sex. Frederic Chopin may well have been trans by all accounts' likewise his lover Georg Sands who by all accounts was born female but wore mens clothing and smoked cigars. Seems that not much fuss was made about it back in the day. Going further back it is appears that the Roman Emporor Elagabalus (3rdcentury), born male, insisted on female pronouns.

You seem not to understand what "by all accounts" means. There are no "accounts" that I can find that offer the idea that Chopin was trans. Gay yes. Trans no. There are *some* accounts that Sands may, by todays measures have been considered Trans, but many more that disagree with this viewpoint.

You did not mention Victor Hugo here, only an unattributed quote from Wikipedia.

Maybe instead of constantly attacking people and trying to redefine history to your own viewpoint, you might like to work on consistency.
Or if you prefer...

"That thing you said.... I do not think it means what you think it means..."

 

[monkers]

Yes words change in use, and yes 'gay girl' did not mean all girls are gay, but the coincidence is not without a little humour-or is that why you didn't understand IanC?

Also words such as 'transsexual', gender dysphoria, transgender, etc, so one can not expect to find them in historic accounts. Hugo is not the only one reported to have remarked on Sand's persona. Chopin was a friend of Hector Berlioz who although a composer of note himself, was also widely known as a critic and writer. Berlioz left references to this in papers, but obviously not in words that did not contemporaneously exist.

If it is the case the Hugo did in fact say those words, it is reasonable to interpret them in the available vocabulary of the day. Not that I have asserted anything. The point of writing what I did was simply to say to Unkraut that we can not say for certain at what point in history people were observed to showing signs of a different gender identity, because the language to describe it as we would now just wasn't there.

All rather obvious when you think about it.

 

[icowden]

All rather obvious when you think about it.

Clearly not or we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

[monkers]

You need to look up what you said:-


You seem not to understand what "by all accounts" means. There are no "accounts" that I can find that offer the idea that Chopin was trans. Gay yes. Trans no. There are *some* accounts that Sands may, by todays measures have been considered Trans, but many more that disagree with this viewpoint.

You did not mention Victor Hugo here, only an unattributed quote from Wikipedia.

Maybe instead of constantly attacking people and trying to redefine history to your own viewpoint, you might like to work on consistency.
Or if you prefer...

"That thing you said.... I do not think it means what you think it means..."

Oh piss off Ian; you're just time wasting. First you say that the wiki entry is just a report, I had already said ' according to accounts' (and you quoted me saying it). What is the farking difference? Get a grip.

 

[icowden]

Yes words change in use, and yes 'gay girl' did not mean all girls are gay, but the coincidence is not without a little humour-or is that why you didn't understand IanC?

I didn't spot that you were trying a joke, because it doesn't work and isn't that amusing. Aside from that it was spot on.

Also words such as 'transsexual', gender dysphoria, transgender, etc, so one can not expect to find them in historic accounts.

But we should also not be trying to impress modern moral viewpoints on history. It's a bit like saying everyone in the 18th century was racist if they had a slave.

If it is the case the Hugo did in fact say those words, it is reasonable to interpret them in the available vocabulary of the day. Not that I have asserted anything. The point of writing what I did was simply to say to Unkraut that we can not say for certain at what point in history people were observed to showing signs of a different gender identity, because the language to describe it as we would now just wasn't there.

And because this modern somewhat pernicious notion of gender identity hadn't been invented.

 

[Deleted member 159]

You're making it up as you go along to fit your narrative

 

[icowden]

Oh piss off Ian; you're just time wasting. First you say that the wiki entry is just a report, I had already said ' according to accounts' (and you quoted me saying it). What is the farking difference? Get a grip.

You really don't like it when people point out your inconsistencies it seems. Nor do you seem to understand what you are writing.

If I say that according to some people you can see elephants flying across the sky and then state that David Cameron said that he saw a flying elephant, the first statement does not negate the assertion that David Cameron saw a flying elephant.

 

[monkers]

I didn't spot that you were trying a joke, because it doesn't work and isn't that amusing. Aside from that it was spot on.


But we should also not be trying to impress modern moral viewpoints on history. It's a bit like saying everyone in the 18th century was racist if they had a slave.


And because this modern somewhat pernicious notion of gender identity hadn't been invented.

So let's all back to the days before the enlightenment because that would be easier for you to understand. I get it.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Do you know what 'by all accounts' means? Dead people tend not to mind what people say about them. It wasn't just a pen name, it was an adopted persona.

A persona isn't a gender identity. According to your wikki link simply wearing trousers allowed her to do the things which were only available to men at the time.

Victor Hugo commented, "George Sand cannot determine whether she is male or female. I entertain a high regard for all my colleagues, but it is not my place to decide whether she is my sister or my brother." (from wiki)

Hugo is simply reflecting the sexist attitudes of the time. 'A woman who wears trousers must think she's a man'. This is not far removed from the attitude that calls gay and non conforming men 'women' as an insult.

 

[monkers]

You really don't like it when people point out your inconsistencies it seems. Nor do you seem to understand what you are writing.

If I say that according to some people you can see elephants flying across the sky and then state that David Cameron said that he saw a flying elephant, the first statement does not negate the assertion that David Cameron saw a flying elephant.

I was not inconsistent.

Another failure of yours: you said unattributed account from wiki with you quoting me saying that it was attributed to Victor Hugo with a link to where it could be viewed.

And so the craziness of the bigots here goes on ... ad nauseum.

 

[Deleted member 159]

Yadda, Yadda, Yadda

 

[newfhouse]

But we should also not be trying to impress modern moral viewpoints on history. It's a bit like saying everyone in the 18th century was racist if they had a slave.

WTAF?

 

[monkers]

A persona isn't a gender identity. According to your wikki link simply wearing trousers allowed her to do the things which were only available to men at the time.


Hugo is simply reflecting the sexist attitudes of the time. 'A woman who wears trousers must think she's a man'. This is not far removed from the attitude that calls gay and non conforming men 'women' as an insult.

That's your reading of his words, but it is not mine. That is not to say that there were not sexist attitudes all around then just as there is now.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Women couldn't wear trousers in public unless they were out riding or had a doctor's note. Wearing trousers in order to move more freely in public is hardly evidence of a woman having a male gender identity. Stop transing dead people.

I've done Victor Hugo a disservice though. He apparently meant that comment as a friendly jibe to a writer he admired.