Gender again. Sorry!

[icowden]

This is correct (natch). The GR panel make a number of outputs on a case approval. One is to issue a GRC. Another is to direct the registrar general to issue a new birth certificate. Additionally they direct the NHS to change the person's NHS number, they direct other public services such as the DVLA and Passport Office and tax office to protect the person's identity. This is to ensure that as far as possible that the person does not have to reveal their 'trans' identity to anyone. The police are permitted to see the former identity but again are required to put in place measures to protect it.

A lot of these are just plain silly. Changing the NHS number makes healthcare worse for that person - not better. It risks historical medical information not being available.

Although these measures were well-intended, they rarely run smoothly producing all manner of difficulty along the way. For example, as my niece found out, the person can not hire a car since the licence details do not appear on the database available to hire companies. To overcome this the person has on each occasion to obtain a secret code from the DVLA to present at the hire firm desk which gives then gives them access. The code then because of its nature then tells everyone at the hire company that you are in fact a trans person.

And again, I tend to agree with you that it's stupid. The one and only reason they want to know your gender is because it's required by the insurance company (presumably). Gender makes no difference to the hiring of a car.

It's amazing then, given the arrangements made to protect an identity to think that Aurora's gender police think they not only have such right as to carry out an inquisition in public, demand to see a GRC if they suspect a person may be trans, have the right to examine genitals,

I don't think anyone has suggested any of those things.

or remove a person from a public space.

This one is valid. If that space is not for a specific type of person, then that person should go away. Not start whinging about inclusion.

This is the whole problem with the third toilet approach, the system requires the person to 'out' themselves so anyone that is watching every time they need to use the loo - not appropriate!

We agree again. Isn't it nice?

 

[AuroraSaab]

@AuroraSaab I'm not bragging and I'm not feeling entitled.

Saying men who perform femininity should have access to women's single sex spaces is entitlement.

My discussion about 'Simone' is simply illustrative of how this stuff works on the ground and did so long before the idea of a GRC was floated.

It doesn't 'work' for women though. You arrogantly assume that because it happened women must have been fine with it. We are much further on from this now though. 20 years ago there was no expectation that men who identified as women should have access to other facilities like dv refuges, prisons, or sports. Now there is.

So far as they are concerned Simone is a woman. If she's had downstairs surgery then I'd challenge you to be sure, in a changing room context, she was not a natal woman.

So the onus is on women to police their single sex spaces? Most transwomen don't pass as female but again you are expecting women and girls to challenge adult males in a vulnerable situation. Again, as far as you're concerned 'Woman = looks like a stereotype'.

If there's a penis in her pants then she should be discreet in changing rooms - cubicles and changing cucumbers are her friend.

Or just use a unisex changing room. A compromise which transactivists reject btw.

In closing I am, frankly, grossly offended by your personal attack (Edit in both #9499 and #9501) on a post attempting serious discussion and would welcome a retraction and apology.

I suggest you reflect on your opinion that a woman is simply someone who performs stereotypes and as such their single sex spaces are available to anybody who rocks up.

 

[monkers]

A lot of these are just plain silly. Changing the NHS number makes healthcare worse for that person - not better. It risks historical medical information not being available.

We agree. You are quite right. In fact N's previous medical records were archived without her knowledge and are no longer available to her GP.

And again, I tend to agree with you that it's stupid. The one and only reason they want to know your gender is because it's required by the insurance company (presumably). Gender makes no difference to the hiring of a car.

We do agree. A driving licence does not even state sex or gender identity, though people in the know such as the police know how to decode the number.

I don't think anyone has suggested any of those things.

Gender policing of toilets by GC is a thing. Both I and friends have been challenged. I just tell them to fark off with a voice as deep as I can make it.

This one is valid. If that space is not for a specific type of person, then that person should go away. Not start whinging about inclusion.

How can read a law that states the intention to make a person legally female for all purposes (other than listed in the exceptions) be read to make it unlawful for a legally female person to use a female facility? It would be unworkable.

We agree again. Isn't it nice?

Yes, I much prefer agreement. Otherwise I prefer reasonable and rational discussion, but this is a topic where people just lose it. And yes I admit my patience eventually runs thin.

 

[Bromptonaut]

Man up Brompton - from a GC point of view you were being more than a bit arrogant and got called out for it.

I don't have to agree with GC people and from my PoV they're staring at their nevels down the wrong end of a telescope.

 

[bobzmyunkle]

I don't have to agree with GC people and from my PoV they're staring at their nevels down the wrong end of a telescope.

Of course you don't. Doesn't mean you're due an apology. Came across as doubly arrogant.

 

[Bromptonaut]

Saying men who perform femininity should have access to women's single sex spaces is entitlement.



It doesn't 'work' for women though. You arrogantly assume that because it happened women must have been fine with it. We are much further on from this now though. 20 years ago there was no expectation that men who identified as women should have access to other facilities like dv refuges, prisons, or sports. Now there is.



So the onus is on women to police their single sex spaces? Most transwomen don't pass as female but again you are expecting women and girls to challenge adult males in a vulnerable situation. Again, as far as you're concerned 'Woman = looks like a stereotype'.


Or just use a unisex changing room. A compromise which transactivists reject btw.



I suggest you reflect on your opinion that a woman is simply someone who performs stereotypes and as such their single sex spaces are available to anybody who rocks up.

Debating this with you is made very difficult by the fact we're arguing from different premises.

So far as I'm concerned the real Heather and imaginary Simone are not men but women and have/can have a birth certificate to prove it.

You think they're men.

 

[bobzmyunkle]

Debating this with you is made very difficult by the fact we're arguing from different premises.

#9516

 

[AuroraSaab]

Debating this with you is made very difficult by the fact we're arguing from different premises.

So far as I'm concerned the real Heather and imaginary Simone are not men but women and have/can have a birth certificate to prove it.

So now a piece of paper makes you a woman? There have been only around 5,000 GRC's issued in the UK so your view will be a bit of a blow to all those people who regard themselves as transmen or transwomen but don't have a GRC and a new birth certificate. And all those in the developing world whose births are never registered. Poor folk .... wandering around with no proof whether they are men or women.

You seem to be suggesting a 2 tier system in which those with a GRC are given preferential treatment. I think you'll find that unpopular in every quarter, except for certain people with GRC's.

You think they're men.

Biological reality isn't 'a different premise'.

That's like saying 'It's very hard to argue with you about the shape of the Earth because we're coming to it from different premises'.

I come to it from the 'premise' that it's round. You come to it from the premise that if it can be made to look flat, or thinks it's flat, or has a piece of paper saying it's flat .... then it's flat. And if the consequences of that premise have repercussions for 50% of the population, tough sh*t for them...

 

[Bromptonaut]

You seem to be suggesting a 2 tier system in which those with a GRC are given preferential treatment. I think you'll find that unpopular in every quarter, except for certain people with GRC's.

I'm absolutely not suggesting levels of title or whatever but, if the emotive word preferential is removed I think two tiers is where we are right now.

A GRC gives one a birth certificate in one's new gender. While we've relentlessly focussed on transwomen the same applies to women who become transmen. If your birth certificate says you're a girl, female or whatever then you you're female. Conversely if it says boy/male.

In my mind you guys are the flat earthers.

 

[AuroraSaab]

How can that even work? Are you expecting women to ask for evidence of a GRC from a man who identifies as a woman in their single sex spaces?

Again though you're suggesting that a piece of paper makes you a man or a woman. It doesn't. How could it? None of thos would matter if women weren't oppressed on the basis of their sex. But they are, so on some occasions actual sex, not pieces of paper, are relevant and important.

 

[monkers]

AuroraSaab said

I am the law. Anyone who doesn't agree is deluded.

There are words ...

 

[CXRAndy]

In my mind you guys are the flat earthers

Never heard such twaddle in my life.

You continually deny biological fact. That's why you lot are ripe for endless piss taking

 

[CXRAndy]

AuroraSaab said



There are words ...

No, she speaks common sense from a woman's perspective.

 

[AuroraSaab]

How typical of you to present that as though it's an actual quote from me, Monica.

You're reduced to creating false quotes now, on top of the personal abuse. It's easy to doctor quotes on here though isn't it?

I've changed my view. Men can never be women. Even those with a GRC aren't men.

 

[monkers]

No, she speaks common sense from a woman's perspective.

In your opinion, but not in the opinion of parliament and the judiciary.

In a functioning democracy who do you think is supreme?