Gender again. Sorry!

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monkers

Legendary Member
RIP Brianna Ghey.

Your life was taken from you at just 16.

May your flame burn bright eternally. xx

https://www.warringtonguardian.co.u...-murder-trial-live-updates-pair-found-guilty/

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...ound-guilty-murder?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

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Beebo

Veteran

transgender hate crime is unlikely to be curtailed whilst Kemmi Badenoch is the equalities minister.
 

icowden

Legendary Member
Trans people should not have to humiliate themselves by identifying themselves for the edification of the public.
So, they have to identify themselves now? Surely the gender that they are should be obvious, no? And why is it humiliating to say - actually this is what makes me comfortable?

But this is what is being demanded.
I'm not sure that it is.
The majority just want the right to live a quiet life.
I agree - and have made that point a few times. I don't think that the Terf killers and perverts are any more representative of Trans people than the Nazi Far right lot are representative of the "gender critical" movement suggesting more conversation, not less, would be good.
 

monkers

Legendary Member
So, they have to identify themselves now? Surely the gender that they are should be obvious, no? And why is it humiliating to say - actually this is what makes me comfortable?

Well yes, that would become the case. Each time a trans person goes off to a public loo, they'd be going through a door incongruent with their presentation, and potentially challenged for being in the wrong place, and potentially exposing them to increased risk of harm.
 

monkers

Legendary Member
I agree - and have made that point a few times. I don't think that the Terf killers and perverts are any more representative of Trans people than the Nazi Far right lot are representative of the "gender critical" movement suggesting more conversation, not less, would be good.

To be fair, you have been making that point. I'm still asking you to consider the point about moral panic though Ian. The daily headlines about trans people is not help to a peaceful resolution.

Trans people are at increased risk of harm in public when compared with most of the rest of the population.

I've become increasing cynical about conversation. Just look at this state of this thread.

This week we've had the announcement of guidance for schools, only for those who know about the law to say that the guidance is unlawful.

I've covered all this in the past. I guess I could ask N to explain more professionally as she is staying with us at the moment being as you have now kind of met her. Ordinarily I know that she would prefer no involvement, but she has surprised me in the last week with the posts she made here.
 

icowden

Legendary Member
To be fair, you have been making that point. I'm still asking you to consider the point about moral panic though Ian. The daily headlines about trans people is not help to a peaceful resolution.

Trans people are at increased risk of harm in public when compared with most of the rest of the population.
Yep. I agree with both of those statements.
This week we've had the announcement of guidance for schools, only for those who know about the law to say that the guidance is unlawful.
Yes. That's frankly unhelpful as well. If the morons in charge *actually* spoke to the head teachers they might do better with their guidance.

I've covered all this in the past. I guess I could ask N to explain more professionally as she is staying with us at the moment being as you have now kind of met her. Ordinarily I know that she would prefer no involvement, but she has surprised me in the last week with the posts she made here.
I think if N were to post here, it would be very interesting to hear her perspective, but I would not wish her to contribute if she found it too upsetting or uncomfortable. Sharing viewpoints is incredibly important to both discussion and learning. it's really a choice for her.

By the way, glad you are feeling a bit better now.
 

monkers

Legendary Member
I think if N were to post here, it would be very interesting to hear her perspective, but I would not wish her to contribute if she found it too upsetting or uncomfortable. Sharing viewpoints is incredibly important to both discussion and learning. it's really a choice for her.

N here Ian.

The reason I generally choose a position of no involvement is not for the reasons you suppose. I just find it fruitless to engage with those with the most absolute opinions especially when they are not founded on evidence but some other long-held belief, sometimes to do with religious faith, sometimes to do with Victorian imperialistic opinions concerning the societal roles or 'duties' of individuals.

Not only that but the actual lived experiences of trans people tends to be of little interest to absolutists, let alone the opinions of 'lefty lawyers'.

If one begins with the premise that 'sex is binary and immutable' then one pursues a false trail. It is true that human bodies are equipped to make reproductive sex without intervention a binary. It is true that there is a genetic pathway. However what is not true is that there is a law, rule, or duty to follow the path to parenthood. Neither can all humans for a variety of reasons become parents, while others are not suited to parenthood. The supposed success of human reproduction may follow such variable paths that one might say it is a lottery.

If we are to take the view that the true 'meaning of life' is to be successful as parents, then many people must be viewed as failures, either in not being able to achieve parenthood or just (as seen in my own childhood experiences) being awfully under-equipped to be a parent.

If one is free from the expectations of religious belief, of Victorian values, of ideas of social roles and duty, then one must assume one if free to live one's best life without impediment. I will always say that it matters much more to be a good parent, than simply a parent.

Once the myth of such duty to procreate is dispelled, the adherence to 'sex matters' to a much lower import than observance of universal human rights. At times sex does matter, principally for good healthcare. There are difficulties to do with comfort and dignity of the person, however these difficulties are not insurmountable.

The superstitious fear of the unknown is at play, alive and well today as has been the case in centuries past. When presented with fear, people will often take irrational action - a good example being the Hartlepool Monkeyhangers.


The UK government 'lefty lawyer' accusation is worthy of a short comment. In 1948 the UNDHR was signed with the UK as a founder member. It consolidated the views of representatives from a number of countries. It is in effect as socialist democratic contract for the progress of humankind. It is not the law, but is the basis of modern UK human rights law, and much other international law. Lawyers such as I who are entrenched in it are demonised as being 'lefty lawyers', or even 'communists' for being its advocates - but that is the job of the lawyer, to be an advocate on behalf of the law. It is the eventual path to justice.
 
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icowden

Legendary Member
The reason I generally choose a position of no involvement is not for the reasons you suppose. I just find it fruitless to engage with those with the most absolute opinions especially when they are not founded on evidence but some other long-held belief, sometimes to do with religious faith, sometimes to do with Victorian imperialistic opinions concerning the societal roles or 'duties' of individuals.
Seems entirely fair to me.
Not only that but the actual lived experiences of trans people tends to be of little interest to absolutists, let alone the opinions of 'lefty lawyers'.
Again, seems fair comment.

Once the myth of such duty to procreate is dispelled, the adherence to 'sex matters' to a much lower import than observance of universal human rights. At times sex does matter, principally for good healthcare. There are difficulties to do with comfort and dignity of the person, however these difficulties are not insurmountable.

The superstitious fear of the unknown is at play, alive and well today as has been the case in centuries past. When presented with fear, people will often take irrational action - a good example being the Hartlepool Monkeyhangers.
Again quite reasonable.

The "heat" in this discussion thread comes from two places I think. The first is that some people feel strongly that whilst they are quite happy for transmen and transwomen to live however they would like to live, that some areas of biological womens rights need to be protected. @monkers has done a great job of demonstrating that things like toilets are an absolute nonsense. More thorny areas tend to be things like women's sports, women's refuges etc.

The second area of contention is that there is a vociferous movement of transactivists who would like gender critical discussions to be silenced - sometimes quite aggressively. There have been examples given of concerns from lesbian groups who would be uncomfortable at the idea of a transwoman joining them.

It would be interesting to hear your thoughts on trans rights vs women's rights and whether you think there is a need for protection of women's rights. Similarly your thoughts on the extremist wings of both sides of the debate.

*Addendum: Entirely agree with you about the lefty lawyer thing. It absolutely baffles me that it comes from people like Braverman who actually have legal training.
 

monkers

Legendary Member
The "heat" in this discussion thread comes from two places I think. The first is that some people feel strongly that whilst they are quite happy for transmen and transwomen to live however they would like to live, that some areas of biological womens rights need to be protected. @monkers has done a great job of demonstrating that things like toilets are an absolute nonsense. More thorny areas tend to be things like women's sports, women's refuges etc.

The second area of contention is that there is a vociferous movement of transactivists who would like gender critical discussions to be silenced - sometimes quite aggressively. There have been examples given of concerns from lesbian groups who would be uncomfortable at the idea of a transwoman joining them.

It would be interesting to hear your thoughts on trans rights vs women's rights and whether you think there is a need for protection of women's rights. Similarly your thoughts on the extremist wings of both sides of the debate.

Thank you Ian. (N here again: stated for the avoidance of doubt).

The legal argument if flawed from the outset. Of course people are free to discuss from other perspective, but the law always becomes the test.

I used the term 'lottery' before but none of us exist as more than a set of coincidences of our circumstances. Sometimes these are serendipitous; in my own case they were not. At an early age (three) I knew I was incongruent. I neither had the vocabulary or conceptual understanding to know what was wrong, what the cause was, how I might change. All I could say on this was ''I know I am not a boy''.

Sex is not a human right no more than any other human characteristic. I had no right to be born female, and I wasn't. I do have rights concerning my conscience, my rights to family life (or to choose to live as adult outside of a family unit), to my privacy, to my philosophical, religious, and political beliefs.

There is no law to say that we can be born with any characteristic. We exist with those birth characteristics (and genetic make up) from birth. Accordingly, in law, there can be no 'hard won sex-based rights'. There are laws to protect us from discrimination on the basis of our sex, whatever our sex. In this regard males and females must be protected as equals. 'Being treated less favourably than others' is deemed to be a litmus test.

There is no basis in law to argue that person who is recorded as male at birth can not live a life in accordance with the societal expectations that go with being born female. Biological sex is an irrelevance here, because there exists no legal duties for males and females. There is no obligation in law to become a parent, although parental and peer pressures may exist.

On the other hand, we all have an absolute right to our 'self-knowledge' meaning our own sense of 'who we are'.

Sometimes we hear the claim, 'how can gender identity trump biological sex'?

Legally this is straightforward, there is no right to be of one sex or the other, but there is a legal right to be free from discrimination on account of being one's sex. Therefore a trans woman is no different from other women, there being no legal right to be female, but a right to live our own best life without the impediment of discrimination by others (whatever their own characteristics).
 
Number of mentions of 'lefty lawyers' in this thread = 4. None are negative mentions.

Number of mentions of 'Nazis' in association with gender critical views = 30 plus. All are guilt by association mentions.

It's amazing the lengths some people will go to to shut down the debate.
 
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