Gender again. Sorry!

[monkers]

The point is that it doesn't naturally occur in a man's body.

I don't happen to think that your reasoning works as stated. Your argument relies on an opinion about drug safety, one which doesn't anyway appear to be correct.

What is paramount is the welfare of the child. Either it is the case that a child is harmed in this way, or otherwise it is a question of personal distaste. If it is the former then the correct form of evidence is required; if it is the latter then you should just say that.

 

[monkers]

... and yet an NHS trust are supporting it based on near zero research as to its benefits to the child or what the risks might be.

The point is the institutional capture of an organisation that should be science based instead promoting something on the basis of ideology.

Amy K Weimer MD doesn't agree with you.

Introduction​

Induction of lactation in a non-gestational parent has numerous potential benefits including parent–child bonding, optimal nutrition, and health benefits to the child and breast- or chest-feeding parent. For transgender women and nonbinary people on estrogen-based, gender-affirming hormone therapy, the ability to nourish their infants through production of their own milk may also be a profoundly gender-affirming experience. Two prior case studies have been published describing induced lactation in transgender women, but analysis of the nutritional quality of the milk produced has not been previously described.

Main issue​

Here we describe the experience of a transgender woman who underwent successful induction of lactation in order to breastfeed her infant, who was gestated by her partner.

Management​

Through modification of exogenous hormone therapy, use of domperidone as a galactogogue, breast pumping, and ultimately direct breastfeeding, the participant was able to co-feed her infant for the first 4 months of life. We provide a detailed description and timeline of the medications used, laboratory and electrocardiographic measurements, results of the participant’s milk analysis showing robust macronutrient content, and description of the participant’s experience in her own words.

Conclusion​

These findings provide reassurance about the adequacy of nutrition from human milk produced by non-gestational transgender female and nonbinary parents on estrogen-based, gender-affirming hormone therapy, and support the importance of this experience on a personal level.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/08903344231170559

 

[classic33]

It is a something of a stretch to compare something naturally occurring in the body with a drug manufactured by a drugs company in the pursuit of profit.

When drugs are approved, there are pretty much always known side effects, which is why a leaflet is always included. Every over-the-counter medication includes a leaflet which the person is supposed to read. Ibruprofen is not a safe drug for all users, nor paracetemol, nor asprin, nor codeine. When a drug is approved, it is done so against a regime of assessment of benefit and risk.

To be clear I'm not saying this from any position of support or otherwise in to the ongoing argument, but as is the usual case, wild assertions from the usual suspects are not helpful.

The Grauniad today has the following piece with the concern that a medication used in the control of epilepsy has been responsible for harming the children of women who have been prescribed it.

https://www.theguardian.com/society...lidomide-we-were-told-the-medication-was-safe


One last thing, women's bodies are not 'designed' unless you belong to one of the cults with an ideology.

From the description of the children in that piece, it reads as though they were suffering some of the side effects of actually taking Epilim.

Just had a quick read of a few of the leaflets that came with the medications I've used. At the top of the list is "If you are pregnant", for nearly all of them. Others it's "Women who are pregnant".
Quite clear and precise wording used.

The piece you linked to shows the results of taking the medication/drug for what it was licensed for, not the misuse of it by some who were taking it for something it wasn't designed for.

Sticking my neck out on this bit, but watch for something similar for another anti-epileptic medication/drug, Phenytoin. Similar has been reported by women taking it. And its use is more common than Epilim.

 

[classic33]

... and yet an NHS trust are supporting it based on near zero research as to its benefits to the child or what the risks might be.

The point is the institutional capture of an organisation that should be science based instead promoting something on the basis of ideology.

From this piece, and previous pieces you've posted on the misuse of this drug. I'll ask you this question, Do you support women who are misusing the drug, with unknown, possible long-term side effects on the child. Where that use is based, as you point out, on near zero research?

Yes or No will do.

 

[bobzmyunkle]

From this piece, and previous pieces you've posted on the misuse of this drug. I'll ask you this question, Do you support women who are misusing the drug, with unknown, possible long-term side effects on the child. Where that use is based, as you point out, on near zero research?

Yes or No will do.

Hey @classic33, do you condemn Hamas?
Apologies if I've constantly failed to understand the point of your posts.

 

[monkers]

From the description of the children in that piece, it reads as though they were suffering some of the side effects of actually taking Epilim.

Just had a quick read of a few of the leaflets that came with the medications I've used. At the top of the list is "If you are pregnant", for nearly all of them. Others it's "Women who are pregnant".
Quite clear and precise wording used.

The piece you linked to shows the results of taking the medication/drug for what it was licensed for, not the misuse of it by some who were taking it for something it wasn't designed for.

Sticking my neck out on this bit, but watch for something similar for another anti-epileptic medication/drug, Phenytoin. Similar has been reported by women taking it. And its use is more common than Epilim.

Thank you. I'm certainly not going to attempt to stack my limited knowledge of the condition of epilepsy against your own. I'm sorry if there was any uncomfortable reading there for you.

It isn't the case that all medications are or can be 100% safe. It isn't the case that there is no research into the safety of breast milk from trans women. It isn't the case that there are known cases of children being harmed from trans women breastfeeding children. It isn't the case that there are cases of children being harmed from trans men chestfeeding children.

 

[Deleted member 159]

What is paramount is the welfare of the child.

If there is the slightest doubt, don't do it.

 

[bobzmyunkle]

It isn't the case that there is no research into the safety of breast milk from trans women

You linked to one study with apparently one participant. Doesn't sound thorough science to me. Perhaps someone with more energy than me can find access to the actual report and perhaps even a critique of it.

It isn't the case that all medications are or can be 100% safe.

Red herring.
(Apologies to @classic33 if his previous question was aimed at @monkers and not as I assumed at @AuroraSaab)

 

[AuroraSaab]

From this piece, and previous pieces you've posted on the misuse of this drug. I'll ask you this question, Do you support women who are misusing the drug, with unknown, possible long-term side effects on the child. Where that use is based, as you point out, on near zero research?

Yes or No will do.

Yes, under close medical supervision, because it is used sparingly and they are being prescribed it for short periods to 'kick start' their naturally occurring breastmilk production.

This is different to using it for the completely unnecessary production of 'milk' in males as a means of psychological validation or affirmation for the male parent.

Bear in mind that the male will be on several drugs already, and in fact if they weren't on hormones that cause gynaecomastia (breast tissue growth) they would produce zero 'milk'. Meanwhile breastfeeding mothers can't take asprin or Bennylin....

 

[Deleted member 159]

John Lewis, already on its knees, 11000 job cuts, decides to publish woke/trans brochure for its entire workforce. Pretty much signed its own death warrant

 

[monkers]

If there is the slightest doubt, don't do it.

You'd better stop sending your kids to school then.

 

[AuroraSaab]

It isn't the case that all medications are or can be 100% safe.

The NHS don't support their use based on one study though, unlike they are here.

It isn't the case that there is no research into the safety of breast milk from trans women.

There's one study, a couple of other mentions ...none of which are good science.

It isn't the case that there are known cases of children being harmed from trans women breastfeeding children.

I'm not seeing any long term follow up studies so how can we know? Apart from which, we don't normally do unnecessary stuff to babies on the basis of it probably won't be harmful.

It isn't the case that there are cases of children being harmed from trans men chestfeeding children.

They're women so unless they are on testosterone why would there be?

Some points about the Weimer study here:

View: https://twitter.com/FondOfBeetles/status/1760391430369947675


Doesn't look like the single participant was even required to be observed producing milk. They just brought in a sample. Could easily have been from the mother of the baby. It's poorly evidenced and the NHS are acting as trans activists in promoting male lactation on the back of such sloppy research.

Also worth noting that the male participant was on 20mg of domperidine 3 times a day ... and this was a reduction of the initial dose... which has to be taken all the time. The maximum dose for breastfeeding mothers seems to be 10mg 3 times a day until milk kicks in.

 

[Deleted member 159]

You'd better stop sending your kids to school then.

Thankfully most of my kids have passed through the education system. One more to go, thankfully level headed, not into weird cults.

 

[monkers]

Thankfully most of my kids have passed through the education system. One more to go, thankfully level headed, not into weird cults.

You'd better keep them wrapped up now in an underground bunker to reduce all risks to zero. Oh and be sure to keep them away from those religious cultists too. Best yet, keep them away from bigots - very damaging to a young mind.

 

[icowden]

Through modification of exogenous hormone therapy, use of domperidone as a galactogogue, breast pumping, and ultimately direct breastfeeding, the participant was able to co-feed her infant for the first 4 months of life.

This says it all. This experiment was in no way beneficial to the baby, only for the transwoman. The baby didn't need to be "co-breastfed" at all, and the "study" does not mention whether the breast milk produced was analysed for hormones. The study is also locked so people can't read it without paying.