Gender again. Sorry!

[classic33]

That's simply not true. Here's 6ft 5" transwoman Katie Dolatowski being found guilty of assaulting a child in the women's toilets:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/metro....saulted-girl-10-morrisons-toilet-8914577/amp/

Dolatowski was in the same Scottish prison that Isla Bryson was in, though there is speculation they have finished their sentence and been released.

And again, we set the bar very low if we are prepared to say everything less than sexual assault doesn't count. It's about privacy and dignity not just safety. Nobody thinks 9 year old boys are rapists but we still separate 9 year old boys and girls when they change for PE because both sexes deserve privacy.



I've been misgendered loads of times. I couldn't give a toss. If there is an increase in gender non conforming women being challenged it's as a result of transwomen increasingly entering women's single sex spaces and services. Previously you could be assured that whoever was changing next to you was a female, regardless of appearance. Now you can't.

The struggles of men who identify as women are real, but they are not the same as those of women, who have specific needs and rights and who should be free to organise separately from men, regardless of how they identify.

There is provision for transgender people - exclusive services that are only for them. It's not too much to ask that women have access to the same type of services, exclusively for women.

Trans people have the same rights as everyone else. What some activists seek is to end the specific rights that women have. These were given for a reason - dignity, privacy, safety - and the need for those rights still exists.

To characterise those who seek to maintain these rights as 'against human rights for trans people' is a typically hyperbolic attempt to shut down the discussion.


Women's prisons aren't made any better by adding males, regardless of their offence. They are made worse. A transwoman shoplifter presents the same risk as any other male and they impinge on female prisoners rights to dignity and privacy just by being there.

Being male is the risk in itself. Otherwise why have separate prisons at all. We separate prisons by age too, because we know older prisoners are a risk to younger ones, we don't differentiate by severity of crime.

A transwoman shoplifter, is treated in the same way as any other woman shoplifter. It's still a female member of staff required to be in the same room, never a lone staff member whatever the situation. This in case allegations are made. Female police officer has to attend.

We did separate on the severity of crime, long before man or woman. And we still do separate on the severity of the crime. We list prisoners as low, medium and high security risks, and send them to the appropriate low, medium or high security prison.

 

[icowden]

Race is a social construct.
Race is subjective.
Race is not recorded on ones birth certificate.
Records of race and therefore policy on race relies on self identification.

Fair enough

It's been a while since I read it but I seem to remember that was a major point raised in the OP, the consideration that we might start thinking about sex and gender in the same way we think about race...

But wouldn't that be fanciful? The fact is that if you have a Y chromosome you are physically stronger than someone without and in possession of something that can be inserted into someone without a Y chromosome unless you have had it surgically altered. Biology isn't a belief.

Sex is not a social construct.
Sex is not subjective.
Sex is recorded on ones birth certificate.
Records of sex and therefore policy on sex should not rely on belief alone.

Until we have the true ability to rewrite someone's DNA and somehow reconstruct their body (see the Culture - Iain M Banks) someone who is born male has inherent physical advantages over someone born female. We have found ways of ensuring that those born female have protection from those born male who would do them harm. If we erase what it is to be female, we erase those protections.

Hence Sturgeon could not answer the question of whether a transwoman is a woman or not. If they are, then we have determined that all women are equal but some women are more equal than others.

 

[monkers]

I find your long winded convoluted essays as tiresome as you find mine. Pot, kettle, black. Some have remarked that they've appreciated them.

Speaking as I find, you are not just long-winded but a dishonest and bad faith actor. So let's leave each other alone.

 

[classic33]

Fair enough


But wouldn't that be fanciful? The fact is that if you have a Y chromosome you are physically stronger than someone without and in possession of something that can be inserted into someone without a Y chromosome unless you have had it surgically altered. Biology isn't a belief.

Sex is not a social construct.
Sex is not subjective.
Sex is recorded on ones birth certificate.
Records of sex and therefore policy on sex should not rely on belief alone.

Until we have the true ability to rewrite someone's DNA and somehow reconstruct their body (see the Culture - Iain M Banks) someone who is born male has inherent physical advantages over someone born female. We have found ways of ensuring that those born female have protection from those born male who would do them harm. If we erase what it is to be female, we erase those protections.

Hence Sturgeon could not answer the question of whether a transwoman is a woman or not. If they are, then we have determined that all women are equal but some women are more equal than others.

Not on my original, it just said "It".
Medical records for the first two months clearly state "it".

 

[monkers]

Not on my original, it just said "It".
Medical records for the first two months clearly state "it".

Bloody hell !!!

 

[classic33]

Bloody hell !!!

Made getting a legible replacement awkward.

Can't remember much about that time, so it never really bothered me.

 

[monkers]

I've just noticed that this forum has the abbreviation NCAP.

If you put NCAP into youtube you can actually watch cars crashing instead of the virtual ones here.


View: https://youtu.be/pwGgRUkrnng

 

[newfhouse]

Instead we have left wing feminists giving up on left wing politicians and voting for the likes of Raab and Braverman, both of whom are advocates for the abolition of the UK Human Rights Act and are working to do so.

Sometimes you need to be careful what you wish for.

This should be written in six foot neon letters. These ghouls care nothing for feminism, for equality, or for social justice and harmony; what some see as support is actually the complete opposite. Your supposed enemy’s enemy is very rarely your friend.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I'm not seeing many women saying they will vote Tory but I'm seeing lots saying they will look more closely at local candidates rather than automatically vote Labour, Green, or Lib Dem. Or not vote at all. Perhaps you could persuade these parties to address women's concerns rather than calling them ghouls.

 

[classic33]

I'm not seeing many women saying they will vote Tory but I'm seeing lots saying they will look more closely at local candidates rather than automatically vote Labour, Green, or Lib Dem. Or not vote at all. Perhaps you could persuade these parties to address women's concerns rather than calling them ghouls.

Well Labour and the Co-operative party are only just giving up on their female only candidate policy. Even if the female candidate wasn't the best candidate.

 

[newfhouse]

Perhaps you could persuade these parties to address women's concerns rather than calling them ghouls.

Whether you believe they have your interests at heart or not, Raab and Braverman are demonstrably evil.

My wife tells me that the Green Party addresses her most important concerns but she will probably vote for whoever has the best chance of kicking the local Tory out. She remains stubbornly unconcerned on the subject of trans inclusivity and I confess that I giver her calmness considerable weight in formulating my own opinion.

 

[monkers]

Whether you believe they have your interests at heart or not, Raab and Braverman are demonstrably evil.

My wife tells me that the Green Party addresses her most important concerns but she will probably vote for whoever has the best chance of kicking the local Tory out. She remains stubbornly unconcerned on the subject of trans inclusivity and I confess that I giver her calmness considerable weight in formulating my own opinion.

Your wife sounds very sensible. I'll not state the obvious about the UK democratic system, but you and your wife might be interested in this if you haven't seen it. It is some four years old; but it's like 'here's what you could have won'.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politic...18/12/11/greens-are-britains-most-liked-party

 

[mudsticks]

Whether you believe they have your interests at heart or not, Raab and Braverman are demonstrably evil.

My wife tells me that the Green Party addresses her most important concerns but she will probably vote for whoever has the best chance of kicking the local Tory out. She remains stubbornly unconcerned on the subject of trans inclusivity and I confess that I giver her calmness considerable weight in formulating my own opinion.

This is my approach too.

I live in a usually untopplable conservative constituency, so usually vote green to at least get my wishes known / registered in some small way.

Last time round we very nearly got the blue rosette out with a very popular indy candidate (who also happened to be pretty green💚)

Either way i can't imagine that next election that so many folks will be voting with the transrights issue as uppermost in their minds.
Even if you do feel strongly either way, surely there are more important 'we' the people (and planet) issues, ahead of 'me' the individual and my concerns, going on ??

 

[multitool]

That depends on how successful the Tory party and their client media are at weaponising it.
As ever, minority rights make an imperceptible difference to the majority, but an enormous difference to the minority.

The latest furore over prison rapists is an example of a 'moral panic' successfully generated by the right wing and their lackeys. From coverage you would think that the Scottish prison system is full of trans women rapists moving freely about in women's prisons. It turns out there are none. There is one in segregation awaiting assessment and one in a male prison.

 

[mudsticks]

That depends on how successful the Tory party and their client media are at weaponising it.
As ever, minority rights make an imperceptible difference to the majority, but an enormous difference to the minority.

The latest furore over prison rapists is an example of a 'moral panic' successfully generated by the right wing and their lackeys. From coverage you would think that the Scottish prison system is full of trans women rapists moving freely about in women's prisons. It turns out there are none. There is one in segregation awaiting assessment and one in a male prison.

The rw press will use anything as a divisive, and distraction technique issue to try to keep their favoured Tories in if they can

Asylum seeker, climate protestors, brexit remoaners 'benefit scroungers' anything social justice or equality related ie 'the wokeists'.

There's not much hope of them stopping them pumping out this stuff, any kind of morality, measured view, or even the truth isn't a consideration.

The only hope is that enough people will get tired of all their deliberately divisive bs and do the right thing at the polls next year.

But without electoral reform and some workable form of pr coming in, we're condemned to be stuck in this political ping pong game , for years to come.