Gender again. Sorry!

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CXRAndy

Veteran
Other than a few right wing commentators who would have you believe that being trans is an ideology and a cult (which is itself quite cultish behaviour), do you have any actual evidence of this?

Like, people actually being indoctrinated?

Or is it just a hysterical reaction to something you don't understand because it doesn't fit with your "common sense" approach to life.

listen to Helen Joyce say about the writings in the Cass report.
 

icowden

Legendary Member
But keep going if you think making stuff up to make mischief for me is going to make KJK's quote go away. She 'knows that women have penises' (as if she means all of us women).
Sadly the issue with these 5 second soundbites is that
  • They are posted by the person who recorded the soundbite, thus it is possible that they have been faked
  • They are posted out of context, thus we don't have important information preceding or following the statement.
  • She may have made a verbal misstatement. We don't know without the following audio or a link to the original.
A great example of editing here in the skewer at about 34 seconds
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001xvr0
"two year olds can now carry up to 25 grammes of cannabis for personal use"

No-one is making stuff up. Everything posted is accurate but you are sadly back to calling everyone liars. There is no mischief. Thanks for clarifying you were referring to a post from KJK and not what you posted.

Can we go back to having a free and open discussion about trans rights vs womens rights, sharing pros and cons and evidence based research? Maybe look at the Cass report in an open and fair way.

Probably not, but lets try.
 

multitool

Shaman
listen to Helen Joyce say about the writings in the Cass report.

Why can't you just read the Cass report yourself?

Why do you have to read the interpretation of a known anti-trans campaigner who makes a living out of it?

Are you too thick to work out what the Cass report means yourself?
 

icowden

Legendary Member
Other than a few right wing commentators who would have you believe that being trans is an ideology and a cult (which is itself quite cultish behaviour), do you have any actual evidence of this?
Interesting question

For the ideology part we look to the definition of ideology "a system of ideas and ideals". Given that many would sum up trans ideology as the idea that each person has a gender identity or sense of gender which may not align with biological sex, I think it meets the criteria. There is no factual or scientific evidence that support this, thus it is an ideology.

For the Cult bit, it's a bit more difficult as it depends whether you go with the traditional meaning of Cult - a group usually led by a chiasmatic, self-appointed leader who tightly controls his believers and which is usually religious in tone - in which case not, or the new definition "a person or thing that is popular or fashionable among a particular group or section of society".

Under the new definition the Cass report suggests that yes, it may well be a cult in this sense. Cass mentions that 15 years ago only 50 people, predominantly birth registered boys were being seen by gender identity services, but today there are more than 3000, many of which were birth registered girls presenting in early teens often with quite complex additional problems. Couple that with the tendency for "in trends" from social media and it lends weight to the idea that there is a cult element to the current wave of gender identity referrals.
 

icowden

Legendary Member
Why can't you just read the Cass report yourself?
I'm sure he can, but it's only just been published and is 388 pages long. Maybe he has other stuff to do?

Out of interest what do you make of Cass's statements about the toxicity of debate affecting health professionals? Where do you feel that is coming from?
 

monkers

Guru
Interesting question

For the ideology part we look to the definition of ideology "a system of ideas and ideals". Given that many would sum up trans ideology as the idea that each person has a gender identity or sense of gender which may not align with biological sex, I think it meets the criteria. There is no factual or scientific evidence that support this, thus it is an ideology.

For the Cult bit, it's a bit more difficult as it depends whether you go with the traditional meaning of Cult - a group usually led by a chiasmatic, self-appointed leader who tightly controls his believers and which is usually religious in tone - in which case not, or the new definition "a person or thing that is popular or fashionable among a particular group or section of society".

Under the new definition the Cass report suggests that yes, it may well be a cult in this sense. Cass mentions that 15 years ago only 50 people, predominantly birth registered boys were being seen by gender identity services, but today there are more than 3000, many of which were birth registered girls presenting in early teens often with quite complex additional problems. Couple that with the tendency for "in trends" from social media and it lends weight to the idea that there is a cult element to the current wave of gender identity referrals.

This needs care, I might say caution. Trends not are not limited to attraction. In the case of the rise in the number of biological girls looking to transition may not only be cases of attraction to be the thing, but an escape from the opposite thing. In other words girls may be wishing to escape from being girls; and within a system promoted as binary, this gives the choices of boy or non-binary.

I agree with Cass concerning social media, as I have said before. The HopeNotHate report shows that misogyny among boys/young men is on the increase reportedly from influencers such as Andrew Tate. Who can blame girls for looking from an escape from this kind of bigotry?
This is why I have cautioned about the assumption that these girls are gay rather than trans. It is not the only explanation, and it is unscientific to assume that it is.

If hate speech could be brought to an end, and the numbers of trans referral cases diminished, that would be an indicator (but not a proof).

The ideology of absolute free speech free from consequence is a dangerous one. Some will argue that free speech is not gradable. I will argue that it already is, but the bar is set so high, that hate speech can not easily be legally challenged.

If we fail to notice that hate speech is harming children, continue to advocate for absolute free speech, then we can not claim to be interested in defending and caring for children, when we hear from young people that hate speech is ruining their lives.
 
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AndyRM

Elder Goth
Interesting question

For the ideology part we look to the definition of ideology "a system of ideas and ideals". Given that many would sum up trans ideology as the idea that each person has a gender identity or sense of gender which may not align with biological sex, I think it meets the criteria. There is no factual or scientific evidence that support this, thus it is an ideology.

For the Cult bit, it's a bit more difficult as it depends whether you go with the traditional meaning of Cult - a group usually led by a chiasmatic, self-appointed leader who tightly controls his believers and which is usually religious in tone - in which case not, or the new definition "a person or thing that is popular or fashionable among a particular group or section of society".

Under the new definition the Cass report suggests that yes, it may well be a cult in this sense. Cass mentions that 15 years ago only 50 people, predominantly birth registered boys were being seen by gender identity services, but today there are more than 3000, many of which were birth registered girls presenting in early teens often with quite complex additional problems. Couple that with the tendency for "in trends" from social media and it lends weight to the idea that there is a cult element to the current wave of gender identity referrals.

The ideology thing, yeah, fair enough I suppose.

I don't agree however, that because more people are considering they may be trans is an indication it's a cult thing though, just that it's another possibility which perhaps hadn't been thought about in the past. Quite often I think that people forget how much the world has changed in such a small amount of time. The speed at which all kinds of things proliferate in a hyper connected world is incredible.
 

CXRAndy

Veteran
"Respectfully, why is it ok to experiment on some children to get a better evidence base.?

I’m an academic with a research degree; a clinician, and fully on board with evidence based medicine, but robbing even one child potentially of their sexual function, brain and bone development, fertility, is absolutely not a safeguarding first approach.

In previous medical scandals when we had warnings, we didn’t ‘just make sure’ eg. Thalidomide.

The NHS doesn’t experiment on children unless they are end stage dying and have 0 to loose.

Further, the abhorrent encouragement of children to ‘take one for the team’ is a disgrace. Sacrifice yourself so we can learn more. "
 

multitool

Shaman
I'm sure he can, but it's only just been published and is 388 pages long. Maybe he has other stuff to do?

Out of interest what do you make of Cass's statements about the toxicity of debate affecting health professionals? Where do you feel that is coming from?

I think the poor clinicians at GIDs were very likely to be worried about KJK and her Nazi thugs.
 

AuroraSaab

Legendary Member
Have you any evidence that GIDS clinicians were subject to threats of violence from either KJK or Nazis? What do you mean by her Nazi thugs? Does she have an army of violent men at her disposal?

I only ask because a few weeks ago there was a small conference of a gender critical group of clinicians in London. The guest speakers included the Chief Psychiatrist at the Department of Adolescent Psychiatry, Tampere University Hospital, who was part of Finland's gender service for decades, and Sonia Appleby of the Tavistock.

The entrance was blocked by trans activists, in black, wearing masks as usual, who tried to push into the building. At one point a smoke bomb was thrown.

You constantly align gender critics with Nazis when the only violence, threats, and intimidation are from those who share your views.

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