Gender again. Sorry!

[icowden]

There's your problem right there. You've just outed them as part of your cult.

You seem to have missed the point that it was your cult dressed in masks, and equipped with weaponry to intimidate and prevent people from meeting.

I'm not sure that the side you are on is the good guys...

 

[multitool]

You seem to have missed the point that it was your cult dressed in masks, and equipped with weaponry to intimidate and prevent people from meeting.

I'm not sure that the side you are on is the good guys...

I'm not a trans activist, Iain.

Aurora is gender critical. She posts about it incessantly here, and the nature of her postings, such as her carefully curated photo library, hints very strongly that for her it is an obsession. It is clear that she spends enough time on GC cult sites to memorise the arguments and accrue the material she posts here. I would be very surprised if she doesn't replicate this on other websites.

Me? I don't post on this subject anywhere but here. As a topic of conversation it crops up with my wife on occasion because she works with a high % of TW, and part of her role involves advocating for them as a diversity lead. Beyond that, I can think of maybe two conversations ever where it has arisen. I would say that my output in this thread is pretty pedestrian. I'm not steeped in ideology of any of the factions, nor am I well versed with the output of its protagonists. That doesn't put my at a huge disadvantage because, as everyone can see here, it's pretty easy to smash bigotry dressed up as feminism to pieces.

 

[icowden]

I'm not a trans activist, Iain.

And yet you only tend to post in support of the trans activist side of the argument.
Presumably you think that these idiots should be stopped and that meeting allowed to go ahead?

 

[AuroraSaab]

They are mostly just experienced medical professionals who realised that the standard path of care for body dysphoric children wasn't based on science and best practise and then became active in raising awareness. You can't seriously think the chief psychiatrist of Finland's gender clinic adapted her views based on reading Julie Bindel rather than years of clinical experience.

Perhaps if you read a bit more widely you would be better informed yourself. Then you wouldn't say stuff like the Tavistock was so good they were opening 2 more clinics like it. And you wouldn't think the main UK doctor who has pushed puberty blockers for ten years was a transwoman, showing that you'd never heard of her.

The fact is you know feck all about the topic. All you can do is cry some variation of Nazi Toilets! because your main interest in this topic is that it allows you to be misogynistic whilst pretending to be progressive.

And just like we've seen today with Wes Streeting for Labour and even Stonewall, once you see how the wind has changed you'll eventually do a reverse ferret and say you were never in favour of puberty blockers, and no of course lesbians can't have penises, and of course women should be able to meet without being intimidated.

And you'll do it all whilst still imagining that you are intellectually and morally superior to the rest of us on here.

 

[multitool]

And yet you only tend to post in support of the trans activist side of the argument.
Presumably you think that these idiots should be stopped and that meeting allowed to go ahead?

Actually I don't post on the "trans activist" side. I don't really know what it is because as I said I'm not at all invested in it.
I post on the anti-hate, anti-bigotry side.

If you look very carefully you'll see I've never said, for example, that "trans women are women" or that "trans women belong in women's sport". Do that sound like a trans activist to you?

I'm in the middle of it, nowhere near the extremes. Somebody such as yourself should be paying a little more attention to the moderates like me and a little less to our extremist friend.

 

[multitool]

They are mostly just experienced medical professionals who realised that the standard path of care for body dysphoric children wasn't based on science and best practise and then became active in raising awareness. You can't seriously think the chief psychiatrist of Finland's gender clinic adapted her views based on reading Julie Bindel rather than years of clinical experience.

Perhaps if you read a bit more widely you would be better informed yourself. Then you wouldn't say stuff like the Tavistock was so good they were opening 2 more clinics like it. And you wouldn't think the main UK doctor who has pushed puberty blockers for ten years was a transwoman, showing that you'd never heard of her.

The fact is you know feck all about the topic. All you can do is cry some variation of Nazi Toilets! because your main interest in this topic is that it allows you to be misogynistic whilst pretending to be progressive.

And just like we've seen today with Wes Streeting for Labour and even Stonewall, once you see how the wind has changed you'll eventually do a reverse ferret and say you were never in favour of puberty blockers, and no of course lesbians can't have penises, and of course women should be able to meet without being intimidated.

And you'll do it all whilst still imagining that you are intellectually and morally superior to the rest of us on here.

You sound exactly like the experts on the vAcCiNe who dId tHeIr OwN rEsEaRcH, aUrOrA.

You don't "know a lot about the topic", any more than all the self-proclaimed anti-vax experts "know a lot" about epidemiology or vaccinology. You know the square root of jack shît. Being versed in a cult ideology is not "knowledge".

And of course, in the classic Aurora style that has seen seven members of this forum just give up and leave because of you, it is mostly just outright lying in your ad hom attack. So very you. Your lying and bullying won't work on me though, honey.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I reckon most people on here will find your claim of bullying a bit ironic.

I'm not sure they will place your opinion on what's appropriate paediatric medicine above that of Hilary Cass either, or your dismissal of sportswomen's concerns above that of the experts whose research has led to UK sports creating the Open category.

Still, I expect you know best. I'm sure they'll all retract their position and agree with you that - it never happens, ok it does happen but practically never, and women don't really mind, well some women mind but they're all Nazis, and anyway I don't really care so nobody else should either.

 

[multitool]

Will there be anybody left here, is the question. Or will they just tire of your endless dishonesty? Who knows.

I do love it when you try and second guess what other people are thinking. Well, not so much second guess as actually speak for them, unsolicited and with zero evidence

Does the "most people on here" include all the people who were here but left because of you, directly naming you? Last week's little game was you pretending they'd left because of me.

 

[farfromtheland]

... of course women should be able to meet without being intimidated.

Yet I have been intimidated in a women's changing room by women who objected to my appearance. Posting an excluded trans-woman's picture on social media as if this means there is something obviously wrong because of their superficial appearance doesn't help. If it was a mistake then please be careful with social media. Social media is a big part of the problem.

They can and they do. Your problem is that you don't like the fact that they do. Women can also become men.

This is because the law effectively says that the terms 'men' and 'women' pertain to identity, not biology. Non-morons understand.

I believe I am not a moron. From a phenomenological philosophical perspective perceived identity is probably paramount, as reality is perforce mediated by perception. So I am prepared to review my definition of gender, independent of the law. However this process leaves me without feeling I have a gender as such. Having entered 'don't know' to a gender question in an equal opportunities employment questionnaire I subsequently lost a job that I had held before the covid hiatus. No way of knowing if it was cause, excuse or neither, but I too would like to be me as I see myself. If gender is all, I am not a cis-woman, not ever having felt a gender identity, yet I am told I must be content to be labelled thus.

This needs care, I might say caution. Trends not are not limited to attraction. In the case of the rise in the number of biological girls looking to transition may not only be cases of attraction to be the thing, but an escape from the opposite thing. In other words girls may be wishing to escape from being girls; and within a system promoted as binary, this gives the choices of boy or non-binary.

I agree with Cass concerning social media, as I have said before. The HopeNotHate report shows that misogyny among boys/young men is on the increase reportedly from influencers such as Andrew Tate. Who can blame girls for looking from an escape from this kind of bigotry?
This is why I have cautioned about the assumption that these girls are gay rather than trans. It is not the only explanation, and it is unscientific to assume that it is.

If hate speech could be brought to an end, and the numbers of trans referral cases diminished, that would be an indicator (but not a proof).

The ideology of absolute free speech free from consequence is a dangerous one. Some will argue that free speech is not gradable. I will argue that it already is, but the bar is set so high, that hate speech can not easily be legally challenged.

If we fail to notice that hate speech is harming children, continue to advocate for absolute free speech, then we can not claim to be interested in defending and caring for children, when we hear from young people that hate speech is ruining their lives.

With the first part of this I am very sympathetic. Girls and boys can be made to feel bad for being different, not necessarily trans or gay but just not buying into the consensus.

Perhap the difficulty is to moderate speech without banning dissent? I feel it's getting better. Five years ago attempting a discussion like this on the net got me shot by both sides. Or perhaps it's that we need to be able to insult freely but not cross the line to abuse and intimidation? In either case I wouldn't trust the law to protect me or my child. It only applies to protected characteristics and its application tends to push resentment under the radar. Personally I feel that as long as i am not physically attacked or discriminated against in material ways in work, play or law, I can get by. A vast collective attempt to limit the power of verbal and written bile to destroy our confidence and independence of mind is urgent.

 

[multitool]

I'm sure he can, but it's only just been published and is 388 pages long. Maybe he has other stuff to do?

Out of interest what do you make of Cass's statements about the toxicity of debate affecting health professionals? Where do you feel that is coming from?

He had time to read Joyce's partial take on it, and post about it (although I daresay all he saw was a snippet he saw in the gutter he inhabits)

I haven't read Cass's report, any of it, which is why I haven't commented on it. I expect I'll give it a skim art some point, but until then no comment.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Will there be anybody left here, is the question. Or will they just tire of your endless dishonesty? Who knows.

I think there are things they're tired of more than my 'endless dishonesty'. Just my opinion of course.

Does the "most people on here" include all the people who were here but left because of you, directly naming you? Last week's little game was you pretending they'd left because of me.

It includes all 84 of them who left because of me. And the 218 who were going to register but didn't because of me. It includes the farmers whose crops I blighted and the cows whose milk I turned sour.

Yet I have been intimidated in a women's changing room by women who objected to my appearance. Posting an excluded trans-woman's picture on social media as if this means there is something obviously wrong because of their superficial appearance doesn't help. If it was a mistake then please be careful with social media. Social media is a big part of the problem.

I've never been questioned in women's single sex spaces, even when I had a very short hair cut and would occasionally be thought of as male. Perhaps this is because women can no longer be sure that every person in women's facilities are female so an element of wariness and suspicion has developed.

I didn't post the Roxy Tickle photo first btw. I don't care how RT looks. How you look has nothing to do with what sex you are.

 

[icowden]

Actually I don't post on the "trans activist" side. I don't really know what it is because as I said I'm not at all invested in it.
I post on the anti-hate, anti-bigotry side.
If you look very carefully you'll see I've never said, for example, that "trans women are women" or that "trans women belong in women's sport". Do that sound like a trans activist to you?

Fair point. Perhaps if you argued a little less bluntly, that might become a little more obvious?

 

[AuroraSaab]

More good news. In light of the Cass report, the NHS will now be reviewing the provision for adults at gender clinics 'because of “concerns put to the [Cass] review team by current and former staff working in the adult gender clinics about clinical practice, particularly in regard to individuals with complex co-presentations and undiagnosed conditions' and 'because there was “an increasing incidence of individuals seeking to ‘detransition’ following previous gender affirming interventions and the absence of a consistent, defined clinical approach for them'.

Adults deserve appropriate evidence based treatment as much as children do. It would have helped if GIDS had cooperated with the Cass review but with the exception of one clinic they apparently refused to give access to the records of the 9,000 children who passed through it's doors.

https://www.theguardian.com/society...e-inquiry-into-patient-care?CMP=share_btn_url

 

[icowden]

If gender is all, I am not a cis-woman, not ever having felt a gender identity, yet I am told I must be content to be labelled thus.

It isn't, you don't have to and no-one has told you you have to be labelled. Some would like it to be that way and go out of the way to try to silence the new orthodoxy.

 

[icowden]

Adults deserve appropriate evidence based treatment as much as children do. It would have helped if GIDS had cooperated with the Cass review but with the exception of one clinic they apparently refused to give access to the records of the 9,000 children who passed through it's doors.

It would be interesting to know *why* they refused. It may have actually been as simple as not being able to actually produce the data wanted without a significant cost. Some Trusts are running very archaic software, or have written rather than digital records.