newfhouse
pleb
Unkers said the same as Trump. Don't we therefore have to assume that their beliefs are similar?
Gender again. Sorry!
- Thread starter theclaud
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Unkers said the same as Trump. Don't we therefore have to assume that their beliefs are similar?
You are probably right, but I appreciate your attempt!
I don't think it healthy to close your mind to leaning something new about anything, but as you get older there are some things where you think 'I've done that, no point in going over it yet again'.
To the extent it is dependent on biological sex I don't think it is a social construct. The concept of mother and father are not interchangeable. Exactly what roles each play in say the bringing up of children will vary with culture I agree. The basic categories remain distinct though.
I didn't think the nature v nurture argument had been settled!
In which case isn't the legal sex a legal fiction? You are describing someone as being something they are not.
This isn't a court of law!
Do you need to know or have spoken to a paedophile to be able to comment on the morality or otherwise of paedophilia?
There are various lines of evidence that transgenderism is a result of suggestion:
Observation of life: when I was young the concept didn't exist, there were as a rule no signs of anyone feeling trapped in the wrong body or suffering gender identity disorder.
A journalist Abigail Shrier reseached what is going on in American schools and wrote a book called Irreversible Damage. I haven't read it but I did listen to a review of it and saw her on YT, and what is going on can only be described as evil. I don't think, however, Shrier is approaching this from a religious perspective. The teenage daughters of leftists seem to be particularly vulnerable to this. Schools taking upon themselves the right to promote transgenderism behind parents' backs. Increasingly draconian legislation in various parts of the world to criminalise parents who object to this.
The increasing army of de-transitioners. Talked into something they later regret. This was brought up on an Anglican broadcast I listen to called Anglican Unscripted which is based in America! They gave the reddit link on this, which now has @AuroraSaab nearly 44 000 subscribers.
https://www.reddit.com/r/detrans/
It makes harrowing reading. They also gave the following link to a recent report from the NHS that gender confusion is mostly a phase that kids grow out of:
Most children who believe that they are transgender are just going through a “phase”, the NHS has said, as it warns that doctors should not encourage them to change their names and pronouns ....
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...-think-transgender-just-going-phase-says-nhs/
This didn't exactly receive wide coverage. The C of E minister in England they were interviewing hadn't heard of it.
Douglas Murray cites an article in the Telegraph about a GP convicted of running transgender clinic for children without licence including puberty blockers for a child as young as 12.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...-running-illegal-transgender-clinic-children/ (I don't have a subscription and don't want one but the headline is clear enough.)
I have friends who have an autistic son who has suddently announced he is transgender. They have absolutely no idea where this has come from, there has never been any sign of this prior to university. A mother of all people would spot this. So where has it come from?
AuroraSaab
Squire
This is it though isn't it? We all know there has always existed a very small number of people who from an early age have had overwhelming feelings of body dysphoria. Some to the point where they felt a need to live as they perceive the opposite sex live, or even to undergo surgery.
What happened in the last 15 years is that the 'trans umbrella' has been expanded to include everybody from depressed teenage girls who want to run away from their body because their culture sexualises girls so much, to men who simply enjoy women's clothes but have no dysphoria.
All of that would be fine if it didn't involve turning kids into lifelong patients with a host of medical issues and allowing every man who claims a trans identity the right to access women's single sex spaces.
Autistic children are overrepresented in the numbers referred to gender clinics, as are gay kids, and, if I recall correctly, children in care. We need to proceed cautiously with these kids, not rush to affirmation or drugs. Your brain isn't mature until 25 so the idea that at 11 or even 17 you can make an informed decision to commit to drugs that will irreversibly change your body should be a concern to us all.
What happened in the last 15 years is that the 'trans umbrella' has been expanded to include everybody from depressed teenage girls who want to run away from their body because their culture sexualises girls so much, to men who simply enjoy women's clothes but have no dysphoria.
All of that would be fine if it didn't involve turning kids into lifelong patients with a host of medical issues and allowing every man who claims a trans identity the right to access women's single sex spaces.
Autistic children are overrepresented in the numbers referred to gender clinics, as are gay kids, and, if I recall correctly, children in care. We need to proceed cautiously with these kids, not rush to affirmation or drugs. Your brain isn't mature until 25 so the idea that at 11 or even 17 you can make an informed decision to commit to drugs that will irreversibly change your body should be a concern to us all.
monkers
Legendary Member
@Unkraut
You may consider yourself to long in the tooth to change your views. Honestly is that a sound basis to decide the lives of others.
I believe that in saying that, you've effectively disqualified yourself from the debate.
As I have said before, I have been close (and very close) to a number of trans people. My niece has one friend in particular; a retired professional person. They have transitioned, had surgery and now have transition regret.
Post surgery regret is experienced for every type of surgery. My great Aunt has hip pain in one hip. She had a replacement with a good result. A few years later she had increased pain in the other hip, so again she opted for surgery. This time she had a terrible result - post surgery excruciating pain that the NHS failed to manage. They took the hip joint away leaving her with no hp joint and became housebound and isolated. She ended her life by refusing to eat and drink.
Some gender confirmation surgeries do not conclude with a favourable outcome, just like other surgeries. This can lead to post surgical regret. I think we all understand that. Post surgical regret for gender confirmation surgery is remarkably low, but the rate is not zero.
My niece's friend regret's their surgery, though not because the surgery didn't go well. The surgery was carried out in England in a private hospital.
This friend, let's just call them 'N' from now on, had lived a fulfilled life as a transvestite and gay man, very actively engaging in social and sexual life as such. They were not married, not harming any one.
At my house one evening (this was some years ago) said I think I might be trans like you girls. There were no words of encouragement, there was exactly the opposite. He was actively discouraged. They knew that his life was already happy and fulfilled. They 'knew' that he wasn't trans, because they knew that he could not be happy about his life one day, and so sad about it the next that this sudden desire to be a woman was real. Perhaps his motivation was that these 'girls' as he tended to say, had become his closest circle of friends, they were all close friend with much genuine affection for each other.
His decision to begin transition was a misjudgement on his part. So it isn't just children who can misjudge.
N's transition took two years, the legal minimum, and a timeframe not generally available, but he was comfortably off and had the ability to pay whatever was required. He admitted that his goal was to get a GRC. He admitted that he had told the psychologist at each appointment that he was experiencing gender dysphoria. He heard stories of the panel rejecting some applications, so he had surgery 'to make his case more convincing'.
When he told that group of friends of his surgical regret, they all cried together, but did admit that the others had actively tried to dissuade him.
So what can we learn?
That peer pressure is not necessarily a factor. In N's case the peer pressure was not to do it.
That a 2 year medicalised process of transition did not prevent N's transition. There was a professional diagnosis of GD because all GD is self-diagnosis anyway. One simply needs to say it for it to be true.
If a person like N of any age living in say Ireland now had set themselves of a GRC, they would not need to make the mistakes that N did. In Ireland can self-ID and it is pretty much granted on request with out the medicalisation model. Self-ID might will have prevented N's mistakes.
You may consider yourself to long in the tooth to change your views. Honestly is that a sound basis to decide the lives of others.
I believe that in saying that, you've effectively disqualified yourself from the debate.
As I have said before, I have been close (and very close) to a number of trans people. My niece has one friend in particular; a retired professional person. They have transitioned, had surgery and now have transition regret.
Post surgery regret is experienced for every type of surgery. My great Aunt has hip pain in one hip. She had a replacement with a good result. A few years later she had increased pain in the other hip, so again she opted for surgery. This time she had a terrible result - post surgery excruciating pain that the NHS failed to manage. They took the hip joint away leaving her with no hp joint and became housebound and isolated. She ended her life by refusing to eat and drink.
Some gender confirmation surgeries do not conclude with a favourable outcome, just like other surgeries. This can lead to post surgical regret. I think we all understand that. Post surgical regret for gender confirmation surgery is remarkably low, but the rate is not zero.
My niece's friend regret's their surgery, though not because the surgery didn't go well. The surgery was carried out in England in a private hospital.
This friend, let's just call them 'N' from now on, had lived a fulfilled life as a transvestite and gay man, very actively engaging in social and sexual life as such. They were not married, not harming any one.
At my house one evening (this was some years ago) said I think I might be trans like you girls. There were no words of encouragement, there was exactly the opposite. He was actively discouraged. They knew that his life was already happy and fulfilled. They 'knew' that he wasn't trans, because they knew that he could not be happy about his life one day, and so sad about it the next that this sudden desire to be a woman was real. Perhaps his motivation was that these 'girls' as he tended to say, had become his closest circle of friends, they were all close friend with much genuine affection for each other.
His decision to begin transition was a misjudgement on his part. So it isn't just children who can misjudge.
N's transition took two years, the legal minimum, and a timeframe not generally available, but he was comfortably off and had the ability to pay whatever was required. He admitted that his goal was to get a GRC. He admitted that he had told the psychologist at each appointment that he was experiencing gender dysphoria. He heard stories of the panel rejecting some applications, so he had surgery 'to make his case more convincing'.
When he told that group of friends of his surgical regret, they all cried together, but did admit that the others had actively tried to dissuade him.
So what can we learn?
That peer pressure is not necessarily a factor. In N's case the peer pressure was not to do it.
That a 2 year medicalised process of transition did not prevent N's transition. There was a professional diagnosis of GD because all GD is self-diagnosis anyway. One simply needs to say it for it to be true.
If a person like N of any age living in say Ireland now had set themselves of a GRC, they would not need to make the mistakes that N did. In Ireland can self-ID and it is pretty much granted on request with out the medicalisation model. Self-ID might will have prevented N's mistakes.
newfhouse
pleb
You weren't aware of it but it's plain silly to suggest it didn't exist.
monkers
Legendary Member
A surprise to you probably but I at least partly agree.
Amending documentation is just a technical administrative procedure. Transition isn't. One is easily reversible, the other isn't.
Allowing children to wear the uniform of their self-perceived gender is no big deal. Spaces? There are solutions out there.
The way to keep young people healthy is not to insist on a heavily medicalised process of transition, but to embrace the process of Self-ID. Let's leave the setting of age restraints to a separate argument. We all know that some children join movements which are about rebellion whatever it might be, punks, goths, etc. Let them live it, through it, continue it, drop it as they wish.
Remove the element of rebellion to authority by making it ordinary, and then those who are not 'truly trans' will find another identity to explore. Self-ID will do that and reduce the workload for child psychologists and allow them to work with children in genuine need of professional support.
There are safe ways forward, blanket bans are not solutions.
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AuroraSaab
Squire
Apart from the right wing in the US no one has suggested blanket bans. Stopping the use of puberty blockers isn't a blanket ban - it's an overdue acknowledgement that the long term effects of these drugs are not fully known and a recognition that children under 18 cannot consent to infertility, bone deficiency, inability to orgasm.
Likewise the proposed ban on conversion therapy actually is a blanket ban if it prevents therapists exploring why children have dysphoria and forces them to follow the affirmation model - which is what transactivists want.
Social transition isn't a neutral act. It's not about clothes. If a child decides they are the opposite sex at 12 and completely invests in that identity at school and social events with name changes etc., it's very difficult to row that back at 15. As the Cass report says, it can concretise what is actually a passing phase.
Likewise the proposed ban on conversion therapy actually is a blanket ban if it prevents therapists exploring why children have dysphoria and forces them to follow the affirmation model - which is what transactivists want.
Social transition isn't a neutral act. It's not about clothes. If a child decides they are the opposite sex at 12 and completely invests in that identity at school and social events with name changes etc., it's very difficult to row that back at 15. As the Cass report says, it can concretise what is actually a passing phase.
monkers
Legendary Member
Again you've moved the goalposts in the middle of discussion. This is rather careless. If people were to stop doing this, at least certain principles may become agreed. Yes 'teachery' of me, but it's the difference between a casual chat in the pub to a proper discussion or debate. I will agree the site is called 'cyclechat', however you either consider the topic worthy of serious discussion or you don't.
AuroraSaab
Squire
I find your patronising tone in this whole discussion as tiresome as you find me careless. I simply answered the points you raised re blanket bans and social transitioning.
For those interested, here's an article on women who have detransitioned.
View: https://medium.com/@barereality/the-detransitioners-72a4e01a10f9
For those interested, here's an article on women who have detransitioned.
View: https://medium.com/@barereality/the-detransitioners-72a4e01a10f9
classic33
Me
Regarding the brain,
It starts to solidfy its patterns by the age of 20. By the time you're 25, it's become "lazy" and relying on the neural connections made up to then(it tends to make fewer new connections after the age of 25).
monkers
Legendary Member
Delusional - tick
Fantasists - tick
Paedophiles - tick
Groomers - tick.
These are all features of the American big conspiracy theory.
And again I say, this is an argument between groups of cis gender people throwing their faeces at each other with trans people trapped in the middle.
Electoral campaigning is at the heart of this. People from the extremes of the political left and people from the extremes of the political right involved in a bidding war against all cis others for the possession of their identified enemy, all this incitement of hatred for votes.
Some people call this 'fascism'. It isn't exactly, but it is fascist-like because it features those same tactics of coercion and recruitment.
I'll write more about this perhaps later.
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AuroraSaab
Squire
Even Nicola Sturgeon has said Isla Bryson is 'almost certainly faking' being transgender so there is a discussion to be had as to whether everybody who claims a transgender identity is genuinely dysphoric. And if we accept that they aren't, what the implications are, especially for women and girls.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotl...11-11ED-B477-CAB94744363C&at_ptr_name=twitter
I don't think offenders like Isla Brydon are genuine. I don't think it's a 'transphobic bingo' dog whistle to point this out. But if you guys want to claim Brydon and the likes of Katie Dolatowski and Tiffany Scott as genuinely trans, have at it. Acceptance Without Exception, I suppose.
How odd that you would mock detransitioners though, and young people with social contagion, by suggesting including their stories in the debate is transphobic. They have a lot of insight into how we ended up in this situation and show the effects of always believing 'We are who we say we are' without question.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotl...11-11ED-B477-CAB94744363C&at_ptr_name=twitter
I don't think offenders like Isla Brydon are genuine. I don't think it's a 'transphobic bingo' dog whistle to point this out. But if you guys want to claim Brydon and the likes of Katie Dolatowski and Tiffany Scott as genuinely trans, have at it. Acceptance Without Exception, I suppose.
How odd that you would mock detransitioners though, and young people with social contagion, by suggesting including their stories in the debate is transphobic. They have a lot of insight into how we ended up in this situation and show the effects of always believing 'We are who we say we are' without question.
monkers
Legendary Member
Neither Isla Bryson or Tiffany Scott have a GRC and amended birth certificate granted by the Scottish self_ID system. I know that because nobody has.
Yet there is some accusation from people saying that is what happens when you have Self-ID. This is obviously disingenuous since in both cases involving IB and TS self-ID were not in the mix. If self-ID had been available, and they had applied, then the state would have had a six month window to check and monitor.
The exemptions already in place in law do not advocate for trans women who have committed violence against women or rapists to be female for the purposes of allocating a prison place - they do exactly the opposite.
Neither have I advanced the view that potentially dangerous trans women offenders be placed in a women's prison.
By some of the responses you would think that I had.
My conclusion is that anybody has the right to their own opinions, but never to their own facts, or some misguided belief that their opinion trumps another person's human rights.
Yet there is some accusation from people saying that is what happens when you have Self-ID. This is obviously disingenuous since in both cases involving IB and TS self-ID were not in the mix. If self-ID had been available, and they had applied, then the state would have had a six month window to check and monitor.
The exemptions already in place in law do not advocate for trans women who have committed violence against women or rapists to be female for the purposes of allocating a prison place - they do exactly the opposite.
Neither have I advanced the view that potentially dangerous trans women offenders be placed in a women's prison.
By some of the responses you would think that I had.
My conclusion is that anybody has the right to their own opinions, but never to their own facts, or some misguided belief that their opinion trumps another person's human rights.
