Gender again. Sorry!

[classic33]

'It’s your analysis that the world is round that really sticks out'. It only sticks out to people who think the world is flat, or to people like you who think that if something looks vaguely round that's near enough and we should all call it round.

The earth isn't round though, is it?

 

[classic33]

My analysis is that there are no special groups of men to whom different rules should apply simply because they say so. It's not kind to make that demand so maybe Monkers/N should stop being unkind and stop pushing for male inclusion in women's spaces, services, sports, and facilities.

The rest of your post is the usual irrelevant verbosity.

I'm not even certain it is "your analysis". As often "your analysis" can be found on other sites, word for word. Reformatting included, so it reads different to the piece you claim to be quoting from.

 

[Deleted member 159]

I know that despite my chromosomes I am a woman

You believe you are a woman.

Reality says otherwise.

 

[AuroraSaab]

You sound like a colour-blind person pretending that colour television doesn't exist. N will tell you that she has no maternal instinct, no libido. She has had no sexual partners and is resistant to the idea of one. You'll see thought that she does not post to say that maternal instinct and libido do not exist, or ''that it's all just a feeling in their heads''.

This moral panic that you promote of trans people all being perverts, paedophiles, and rapists is about as far from reality as it gets.

What relevance is this to anything? You endlessly seek to persuade people that there are special men who shouldn't be treated in the same way as other men.

I expect most of the men on this forum are decent men. You don't see them demanding access to women's spaces on the basis of being harmless though. Why shouldn't those men have access too if other special men can? Why are you only advocating for certain men to have access instead of all men? If you're going to be consistent, shouldn't men without libidos be allowed in the women's changing rooms?

 

[Ian H]

You believe you are a woman.

Reality says otherwise.

Philosophical discussions of "reality" often concern the ways in which reality is, or is not, in some way dependent upon (or, to use fashionable jargon, "constructed" out of) mental and cultural factors such as perceptions, beliefs, and other mental states, as well as cultural artifacts, such as religions and political movements, on up to the vague notion of a common cultural world view.

 

[Deleted member 159]

Philosophical discussions of "reality" often concern the ways in which reality is, or is not, in some way dependent upon (or, to use fashionable jargon, "constructed" out of) mental and cultural factors such as perceptions, beliefs, and other mental states, as well as cultural artifacts, such as religions and political movements, on up to the vague notion of a common cultural world view.

To be clearer, you can't change sex, no matter what you believe/think or are told,and how many times.

 

[Ian H]

To be clearer, you can't change sex, no matter what you believe/think or are told,and how many times.

That's your belief, you mean.

 

[monkers]

To be clearer, you can't change sex, no matter what you believe/think or are told,and how many times.

N again

To be fair CXRAndy, if you think I said that I had 'changed sex', I can see why people will say that you are a bit of pillock. I am not a 'biological woman', I am a trans woman. All women are entitled to equal rights under the law with a few high-bar exceptions that I feel sure will have been discussed.

 

[monkers]

What relevance is this to anything?

N again.

Ask me a sincere question and I will trouble to answer it.

 

[monkers]

N again.

Women will sometimes say, they can only be satisfied by a real man. Do you think this means any man but a trans man? Or maybe you think it's all about you Andy? I hope you get let down gently.

 

[icowden]

N here.
I have no internal or external gonads. My external genitalia is of female appearance. My testosterone levels are practically zero, and lower than a cis female. My oestrogen levels are a little higher than a cis female.

Genuine question here - it's totally fine if you don't wish to answer by the way - given your description, do you have a diagnosis of Morris or Swyer Syndrome? If that is the case then I'm curious as to why you consider yourself Trans. You would seem to fall into the category more closely aligned with DSDs and other genetic anomalies of sex. I just found this rather interesting article which does seem to lend quite some weight to @monker's question of how we define what a woman is.

https://novonordiskfonden.dk/en/news/more-women-than-expected-are-genetically-men/

Yet, on the occasions I read parts of the thread, you are always there to advocate that I must be treated differently. I know that despite my chromosomes I am a woman, whereas you can not say with certainty that you are - to be clear I'm referencing your absolutism that nobody has a sense of gender identity when plenty of cis women tend to say that they do.

I think this is where the discussion tends to get confused and where the "cancel culture" and extremists (on both sides) really don't help matters. I have said this before, but I personally consider that there is quite some difference between someone like yourself, or someone with gender dysphoria who I genuinely think very few people have any issue with at all, and people like Isla Bryson who are seemingly abusing the notion of being transgender. It's the latter group of rapists, perverts and deviants that tend to cause the concern, particularly if at the same time it is perceived that women are losing their protections and their ability to have safe spaces away from men.

My own gender identity has been present and consistent from my earliest childhood memories, but my then available expression of it was to say to my parents, 'I am not a boy, I know that I am not a boy, I will not obey this rule that I must be a boy'.

Again, this may be too much of a personal question for you - please don't answer if it makes you uncomfortable to do so. Given your description of your presentation at birth, at what point was it determined that you should be a boy rather than a girl? From what you have previously posted, I'm guessing that for some reason your karyotype was checked relatively early on and your parents therefore decided that you should be raised male?

Thank you for sharing your story by the way. It may not help some on this lively discussion, but for others it does help open our eyes more to the various conflicting issues within this debate.

 

[monkers]

@icowden

Alas the weekend is over. N is briefly in London, and then on her way back home to Europe later today. She is not back here until the 7th, and then the three of us are straight off on holiday.

Obviously I can answer these questions, but it's only right to leave it to N. It's unlikely you'll see a reply until after 21 June.

 

[Bromptonaut]

Labour have, surprisingly, proposed a scheme to simplify the issue of Gender Recognition Certificates by reducing the level on medical evidence, abolishing the panel and allowing one medic to sign them off.

Kemi Badenoch has accused the party of weaponising the issue; clearly she has no sense of irony.

 

[icowden]

Obviously I can answer these questions, but it's only right to leave it to N. It's unlikely you'll see a reply until after 21 June.

Of course. Thanks for letting us know.

 

[AndyRM]

@icowden

Alas the weekend is over. N is briefly in London, and then on her way back home to Europe later today. She is not back here until the 7th, and then the three of us are straight off on holiday.

Obviously I can answer these questions, but it's only right to leave it to N. It's unlikely you'll see a reply until after 21 June.

Fare thee well travellers!