Gender again. Sorry!

[monkers]

What is 'proposing transition' but saying 'I'm a woman' or 'I'm living as a woman'? It's literally all that's required for protection under the Equality Act. No doctor's note, no hrt, no certificate required.

Eddie Izzard doesn't have a GRC, neither does India Willoughby, nor does Emily Bridges as far as I know. These aren't transwomen?

What formality is required other than saying you're a woman?

What a convoluted linguistic story you spin. All to be able to say that the men who say they are women suddenly aren't as soon as they're arrested for sex offences.

The usual place for a trans person to propose is to ask a GP for a referral because they are incongruent.

Look if you want agreement that the vocabulary is out-of-date, confusing, or misguided, you've got it. The vocabulary was not provided by trans people, but given by cis people psychiatrists et al. Blame them.

Eddie Izzard, India Willoughby, Emily Bridges - if they are don't have a GRC they are legally male. To be clear, there is no inference that I am approving or disapproving of the law. I'm not giving you of what I'd prefer the law to be, just what I know it to be.

By the way, I'm not spinning anything to fit an agenda. I'm just stating what I understand parliament to have intended when they passed the law. I'n not even asking you to agree with the law, I'm merely asking that you represent it truthfully.

 

[monkers]

Women campaigned to get men out of women's jails. Now most of them are out so you say 'What are you moaning about, there aren't many in women's jails?'. Because women campaigned to have them removed.

No I'm standing up for the truth. It's not the case that there are trans women sex offenders in female prisons in England and Wales.

Karen White was a memorable case. You'll find no examples of me saying that Karen White was correctly placed, and plenty examples of me saying that she wasn't. And I can manage that without needing to call Karen White a man, because the important bit here is that this was a political failure - a failure for which Group 4 apologised. The systems were already in place to prevent White being placed where she was.

It was a mistake that was made, and not the fault of innocent trans women on the outside of jail, but that big big brush in the hands of GC tarred them all,

What I don't understand is the need to perpetuate a lie based on a failing.

The Karen White incident was a system failure. The Isla Bryson story was based on a lie. The Tiffany Scott story is mistold.

Where is Tiffany Scott placed now? We've heard the name enough times in the thread, but suddenly it's gone quiet on her. The question is rhetorical, I know where Tiffany Scott is (well sort of).

 

[AuroraSaab]

No I'm standing up for the truth. It's not the case that there are trans women sex offenders in female prisons in England and Wales.

We don't know if there are or not. We do know the violent offenders have been moved after the outcry over Bryson, so probably that included transwomen sex offenders. We don't know about the GRC ones at all. This proves there was an issue and the government addressed it, not that there was never a problem.

Where is Tiffany Scott placed now? We've heard the name enough times in the thread, but suddenly it's gone quiet on her. The question is rhetorical, I know where Tiffany Scott is (well sort of).

What the heck are you on about? Tiffany Scott died in jail in February. They had successfully applied for transfer to a women's jail but the transfer was blocked after the fuss about Isla Bryson.

No word on that allegation about me saying there were 192 transwomen sex offenders then? I'm going to assume that's an admission it was a fib.

 

[monkers]

We don't know if there are or not. We do know the violent offenders have been moved after the outcry over Bryson, so probably that included transwomen sex offenders. We don't know about the GRC ones at all. This proves there was an issue and the government addressed it, not that there was never a problem.

Careful the Scottish prison system is apart from England and Wales. The outcry over Bryson was premature. She was not placed in a women's prison. People should have waited for the risk assessment. That they didn't kinda proves the motive. It was political, an attack on the SNP.

What we do know is that government were challenged over the policy in the High Court. The government won, with the judge ruling that there can not be a blanket ban on trans women entering women's prisons; that a blanket ban without high bar risk assessment is against the rights of the prisoner. I've linked you to this a number of times, but you've always preferred to overlook it.

The Ministry of Justice does not provide the numbers of trans women prisoners in women's prisoners. It was only in evidence to the High Court that they provided the number of 5. It isn't that they didn't have data, but they have a duty to ensure that where numbers are very low that identities and not subject to jigsaw identification. What the MoJ continue to have said is that the number of trans women offenders for all offences is very low, and that all have been subject rigorous risk assessment.

I have seen one recent case of a complaint against a trans woman (N unsurprisingly perhaps had a copy of it). The complaint came from a prisoner who said that she had struck up a friendship with a trans woman prisoner. When a second trans woman was admitted to the same prison, they two were placed in the same shared cell, whereupon they openly formed a relationship. The complaint was, the cis gender woman friend didn't want to play gooseberry. I haven't seen anything else.

 

[Bromptonaut]

The sex offenders, violent offenders, and the ones who have kept their male genitalia have been moved to male prisons. The ones left are likely those men with a GRC, those men serving short sentences, and those men nearing the end of their sentences. Hopefully the number will continue to reduce as they complete their terms and no more will be added.

You can have both male genitalia and a GRC.

 

[monkers]

What the heck are you on about? Tiffany Scott died in jail in February.

Yes exactly. The death is now looking mysterious in the absence of an available coroner's report.

You'll also see why I mentioned HMP Grampian earlier. Scott was placed in Grampian. There were GC claiming that Scott was placed in a women's prison. This was of course a deliberate falsehood. Grampian contains male and female prisoners, but is not a 'mixed prison' either.

 

[classic33]

Put them in women's prisons. Because they are women.

As you would expect as it's per population. Women are 30 million in England and Wales. Transwomen are 48,000 (by census figures).

So 103 female sex offenders out of a population of 30 million.
92 transwomen sex offenders out of a population of 48,000.

That's quite some over representation.
There are nearly as many transwomen sex offenders as actual women sex offenders.

Looks like male pattern offending to me.


The definition is that they declared their gender as female on arrival in prison. It doesn't include those with GRC's. They are counted in the female stats.

If being a woman is innate (as you say) and people are who they say they are (as you say), then transwomen offend at the same if not higher rate than other men. And much higher rates than women.

You realise that the figures you're quoting are wrong. It's all males and all females(that includes newborns and children under the age of 10)

Some really good sites you're using for your "data".
https://uncommongroundmedia.com/understanding-your-nigella-the-harms-of-transvestic-paraphilia/#

 

[monkers]

No word on that allegation about me saying there were 192 transwomen sex offenders then? I'm going to assume that's an admission it was a fib.

I asked for the number of trans women prisoners convicted of crimes against women or girls being in women's prisons in the UK.

In response you posted the misleading graphic making it appear that 192 (who were not even trans women) was 1946.

The correct answer to the question I asked was not 192 or 1946, and not even 5 which was the number you came up with when pressed further. And then with a bit more pressing you admit that you can not say that any of the 5 are interned for sexual offences. Therefore the likely true number is zero.

You've been busy misleading the thread with this all along haven't you. I'm bracing for a Paula Vennels response.

 

[monkers]

Put them in women's prisons. Because they are women.

I've never said that, which I think you may be trying to imply. I have always said, that risk assessment on a case-by-case basis is the mechanism to avoid a blanket ban, and keep risk to a minimum. That is the mechanism being used that has led to the number of trans women sex offenders in women's prisons to zero. Come on now, you know this has always been the case.

 

[AuroraSaab]

You realise that the figures you're quoting are wrong. It's all males and all females(that includes newborns and children under the age of 10)
View attachment 6015

Some really good sites you're using for your "data".
https://uncommongroundmedia.com/understanding-your-nigella-the-harms-of-transvestic-paraphilia/#

Once again I have no clue what you are on about. I have never referenced that Web site. The link seems to be an article about sexual paraphilias in men, which interestingly you seem to think is relevant to a discussion about men who identify as women. I haven't read it but presumably you think it sheds some light on the matter, though I suspect it won't be a very favourable light.

 

[monkers]

No. Let's see you point out where I've said there are 192 transwomen sex offenders in women's jails in England and Wales.

You chuck out these claims, calling me a liar about something I never said, and hope people will believe them. Let's have the screenshot.

I haven't mentioned Jordan Peterson in a single post so again you seem to be mistaken.

You answered my question with a graphic which seems, if the net is correct, might have been published by Jordan Peterson.

The likely answer to my question was zero. There are no trans women convicted of harming women and girls in women's prisons in England and Wales.

You posted a graphic which gave the impression that there are 3 cis women interned for sexual offences, and that there are 1946 trans women.


The real numbers are much different aren't they ! Likely zero for trans women and using what I admit is my own estimate based on MoJ releases, 60 cis women.

Are you seeing the problem yet? or do I have to shout it your style in big bold letters?

Here it is again to remind you. With a question that should have had an answer somewhere between zero and five, you published this ...

 

[classic33]

Once again I have no clue what you are on about. I have never referenced that Web site. The link seems to be an article about sexual paraphilias in men, which interestingly you seem to think is relevant to a discussion about men who identify as women. I haven't read it but presumably you think it sheds some light on the matter, though I suspect it won't be a very favourable light.

The only page on which that picture, posted by yourself, appears.

For the record I have never said you've referenced that site, just that you've used some interesting sites for your "data".

 

[AuroraSaab]

You answered my question with a graphic which seems, if the net is correct, to have been published by Jordan Peterson.

He didn't originate it. I have no idea if he's used it.

The likely answer to my question was zero. There are no trans women convicted of harming women and girls in women's prisons in England and Wales.

Because they've been moved after an out cry (or most of them have).

You posted a graphic which gave the impression that there are 3 cis women interned for sexual offences, and that there are 1946 trans women.

Per million of population. The stats are ratios.

The real numbers are much different aren't they. Likely zero for trans women and using what I admit is my own estimate based on MoJ releases, 60 cis women. Are you seeing the problem yet? or do I have to shout it your style in big bold letters?

The problem is you think your own stats - 'likely zero ... my estimate' - should be believed rather than official stats. Claiming there are very few transwomen in women's jails for sex offences, when it was women campaigning who got them turfed out, as a win for your argument, is the most ridiculous attempt at gaslighting.

I see what you've done though. You've read the stats on the graphic that say '92 transwomen in jail for sex offences' (it doesn't say women's jail) as '192 transwomen sex offenders in women's jails'. Instead of admitting you misread it, you're doubling down and trying to deflect.

 

[AuroraSaab]

You can have both male genitalia and a GRC.

You certainly can. I am not in favour of making genital removal a requirement for getting a GRC for obvious reasons. It's unclear whether male prisoners with a GRC who haven't undergone surgery (if there are any) have been removed from women's prisons since the change in regulations.

 

[AuroraSaab]

View attachment 6016
The only page on which that picture, posted by yourself, appears.

For the record I have never said you've referenced that site, just that you've used some interesting sites for your "data".

That graphic is all over the Internet, Classic. It's based on official stats. Not surprising that it would turn up in an article by a doctor on male sexual paraphilias.