Gender again. Sorry!
- Thread starter theclaud
- Start date
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AuroraSaab
Squire
My claim is that all men are equally men, and in certain limited but important situations men who say they are women should be treated the same as we treat other men. Your claim is that these men are different and should be treated differently from other men based on their say so. You're the one making the claim without evidence, whether it's scientific or statistical.
monkers
Legendary Member
Their protections under the law are not exactly the same. A trans woman has the dual characteristics under the EqA of sex (recognised as female) and of gender reassignment. A transgender person has their sex recognised as their birth sex, and the characteristic of gender reassignment. A man who likes to slip on a dress as you seem to like to say, has neither the protection of having their sex recognised as female or of gender reassignment.
This is why it matters, and is an entirely false presentation as a matter of facts when you (and others) try to treat them as ''all the same'' in a single cohort. A person has the human right just to say they identify with the opposite sex, as you are keen to say that does not make them the opposite sex biologically, but neither does it confer the opposite sex legally.
Hence, I have never argued that cross-dressing men should automatically be given by default the right to pick a prison - a false claim that you've made a number of times. What I have done and consistently at that, is that prisoners with a GRC should be placed according to risk assessment on a case by case basis Which by the way, is the status quo arrangement by which all prisoners are placed.
Now for a couple of extra bonus points for you.
Isla Bryson was never housed in the female prison estate. It's a lie to say so. Bryson was remanded for 48 hours in isolation in a separate unit while subject to risk assessment. The ongoing practice was to send prisoners there on that basis from the 'feeder' courts in the area.
Second point, Scotland has prisons where males and females are housed on the same prison estate. This does not make them mixed prisons.
I have seen the dishonest accounts about numbers of men being allowed on the women's prison estate including the numbers of men imprisoned in HMP Grampian, a prison which houses men and women on one estate. It is not a case of men being accommodated with women in a single prison.
Unless or until GC folk start being truthful with their accounts of 'reality' and using data correctly, I will continue to call them out as dishonest.
So back to reality. How many trans women with a GRC with crimes against women or girls or housed with women in women's prisons.
I don't want some abstract numbers from belief, or numbers derived by Jordan Peterson about Ministry of Justice numbers - which is absolute tosh by the way. I want you to provide real data to back up your claims, or otherwise a withdrawal.
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AndyRM
Elder Goth
I wouldn't say it's evil, but I would say that it's drawing a weird line in the sand. By it being completely privately funded it's run according to the beliefs of those funding it which I don't think is a great idea because it pushes an agenda, in this case the exclusion of trans women.
monkers
Legendary Member
The state provides trans people with legal protections, it does so because they know that people like you exist.
monkers
Legendary Member
Well stated. I'll just add a word if I may ... blanket ... the blanket exclusion of trans women - which of course is unlawful.
dutchguylivingintheuk
Über Member
Classic distraction, but ok you're not able to change the law i didn;t state that either but as it is so hard for you to understand i will use a bit more words.
Alltough you're not making the law your defending an law that says under which provisions someone can identify as male of female whilst being biolgical the opposite gender.
The general asumption you seem to make is ''once they transition they won't offend again'' I gave a few examples why that could or would be wrong to assume, you inserted you're ''floppy dick'' line at some point, i just showed you a few example of abusive persons even without dick, by their own choice.
All still does not take away that there is no evidence people stop offending if they transition, and your previous arguments seems more like wishfull thinking than actually based on something.
So my stand by my point that there need to be safeguard(s) to protect other transgenders persons, females and males against these kind of persons.
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monkers
Legendary Member
I'm going to show readers here just how big a lie this presentation is pushing.
Sex offending is a broad range of offences. It is not the number of men who offend against women. To present this as evidence to your claim would be disallowed by any court.
It shows 103 women being in prison for sexual offences. Again there is no breakdown. It could be 103 women who have committed sexual offences (to be clear I don't believe that to be the case). So what would you do with those women who are in prison for sexual offences against women and girls? Put them in male prisons?
In the graphic, in the small print, the number of women in prison for sexual offences is 103, but let's now count the number of little green figures standing there representing 103 - that's right it's 3. Now go to the number of 'men who identify as women', a number given as 92, and now there are 1916 little half blue half pink figures.
103 represented as 3, for women. 92 for 'men identifying as women' represented as 1916. Funny that when the actual headcount is that more women are in jail for sexual offences than 'men identifying as women'.
Where is the definition of 'men identifying as women'? Who are included in this cohort.
This is outrageous fakery, but it's the best you've got?
bobzmyunkle
Senior Member
Interesting that there's no prosecution.
monkers
Legendary Member
You kinda did, but maybe you intended the word 'you' to mean other people than me, such as those who actually wrote the law. And OK I can read the sentence to mean that, but the context of 'you' was set earlier in the sentence when you were calling me 'daft'. Never mind.
monkers
Legendary Member
AndyRM
Elder Goth
It's bit like football fans going into the wrong end I think:
"You weren't meant to be there, these are the stated rules of the club, you don't have a leg to stand on."
classic33
Me
The use of the Gender Recognition Certificate was because if one is held, that dictates whether you'll be in the men's or women's estate, in Ireland. Not what you say you are. It's only those with one that are represented in prison stats.
It's how the prison stats are formed, and recorded. It's not my system, but the legal system of another country.
As for how many trans people in Ireland, I don't know. I could do what you do and pluck some figure(s) out of the air to prove a point, but to do so would be wrong on my part.
Worth noting though, that year on year trans men outnumber trans women in both applications for and receiving a Gender Recognition Certificate. A slow, drawn out legal process/system.
AuroraSaab
Squire
That's not true. There's no requirement under the Equality Act to have surgery or hrt to have the protected characteristic of Gender Reassignment.
Isla Bryson would likely have remained in Corton Vale women's prison if it hadn't been publicised and the public kicked off about it. Why take them to a women's prison rather than a man's for assessment if that wasn't the intention?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-64729029.amp
There are 7 transwomen held in women's jails in Scotland in 2023. Down from 11 in 2022.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...o-be-mostly-kept-out-of-female-scottish-jails
You make assertions that are easily proved false in the hope that casual readers will take your word for it. See above.
We don't know because they are counted as women for the purpose of the stats. But now we're back to your latest flip flop - they only count in prison if they have a GRC.
Lol. No withdrawal will be forthcoming because your assertion is a ridiculous U turn. How can a man being a woman be something innate for 90% of the thread but now it's not real unless they have a GRC?
They are either all women simply because they say they are, or none of them are. Make your mind up.
classic33
Me
Michael Loughrey from Gort is running for the newly formed “Irish People” party in the Ennistymon electoral area.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-41200102.html
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-41200102.html
