Gender again. Sorry!

[monkers]

That's subsets of people. Trying to suggest being in the Lib Dems is a subset in the way that being male or female is is patently ridiculous.

My point is that the 'subsets' argument is a nonsense. People are individuals, each with the right to self-determination - that's what the law says.

It's just another example of a manufactured argument in place of any real one.

 

[monkers]

View: https://x.com/i/status/1797749626696540626


Oh no, a female Tory MP (now former Tory MP) not agreeing with Badenoch and the gender critical cult. Quick Aurora, send a note, you urgently need to test her gametes.

 

[Deleted member 159]

Cross sex hormones simply change some secondary sex characteristics like growing facial hair or fat distribution.

That's just bollocks

Are you saying that taking cross sex drugs, actually changes your DNA and you change biological sex?

Just want to be crystal clear, this is what you are saying.

 

[icowden]

I was talking about girls who take testosterone and grow facial hair actually. Either way these are cosmetic changes.

Going to have to disagree there. Taking testosterone will cause far more than just cosmetic change. It has an effect on behaviour (e.g. aggression) and all sorts of things.

 

[monkers]

Are you saying that taking cross sex drugs, actually changes your DNA and you change biological sex?

Just want to be crystal clear, this is what you are saying.

No. I've never said so. You keep on asking the same questions and getting the same answer. This leads me to think that you are way too dim to understand the issues.

 

[AndyRM]

Going to have to disagree there. Taking testosterone will cause far more than just cosmetic change. It has an effect on behaviour (e.g. aggression) and all sorts of things.

100% this. And it can be pretty drastic too.

 

[AuroraSaab]

My point is that the 'subsets' argument is a nonsense. People are individuals, each with the right to self-determination - that's what the law says.

The law quite rightly expects us to balance our desires and rights against those of others.

Oh no, a female Tory MP (now former Tory MP) not agreeing with Badenoch and the gender critical cult. Quick Aurora, send a note, you urgently need to test her gametes.

What of it? Women disagree sometimes. No gamete testing required.

Going to have to disagree there. Taking testosterone will cause far more than just cosmetic change. It has an effect on behaviour (e.g. aggression) and all sorts of things.

So do many other drugs. They don't change your sex though. There are no behaviours that are 100% exclusively male or female, so for example a woman on testosterone who becomes more aggressive hasn't become more male because they are now more aggressive any more than a man with steroid aggression is now more manly. That's the regressive stereotyping on which gender identity is based though.

A man with low testosterone hasn't become less manly and more womanly regardless of its effects on behaviour.

 

[monkers]

The law quite rightly expects us to balance our desires and rights against those of others.

Only rights (of those two).

 

[monkers]

What of it? Women disagree sometimes. No gamete testing required.

Then why the fascination with my gametes? Especially when you know that a woman of my age doesn't have any.

 

[monkers]

So do many other drugs. They don't change your sex though. There are no behaviours that are 100% exclusively male or female, so for example a woman on testosterone who becomes more aggressive hasn't become more male because they are now more aggressive any more than a man with steroid aggression is now more manly. That's the regressive stereotyping on which gender identity is based though.Trans

It's actually the regressive stereotyping of which you and cult members are guilty of when talking about trans people. You stereotype behaviours including criminality with birth sex, while overlooking the obvious. If you keep on making the argument that trans women are men even though they don't have male genitals, male gametes, or testosterone are potential rapists, you make yourself look daft. If you say that there is no such think as 'ladybrain' without realising that post-menopausal women like me take HRT to maintain emotional balance, you can't expect to be taken seriously by women like me.

In the safe spaces argument, we need to be concerned about safety. If you promote judgement by physical appearance, you are promoting negative stereotypes.

We have CXRAndy and yourself keep going on about DNA and how it can't be changed, but we can't test the DNA of innocent people just needing to piss every time. Do you believe that criminal genes are detectable? Unless you're prepared to subject yourself to physical exam to check for a prostate gland every time you enter a loo or changing room, you'd best think this through.

 

[icowden]

We have CXRAndy and yourself keep going on about DNA and how it can't be changed, but we can't test the DNA of innocent people just needing to piss every time. Do you believe that criminal genes are detectable? Unless you're prepared to subject yourself to physical exam to check for a prostate gland every time you enter a loo or changing room, you'd best think this through.

I'm not sure anyone is suggesting that. What is being suggested is that an unfortunate side effect of being accommodating to transwomen is that it provides a legitimate route for a male who otherwise would not have been hanging out in the ladies loos, to hang out in the ladies loos, and whereas previously it may not have occurred to said person to don a dress to fit in, it now does as it is being established as a norm.

That said, I'm fairly sure that most ladies would have no qualms about getting an undesirable out of the ladies toilet regardless of appearance.

 

[AuroraSaab]

You stereotype behaviours including criminality with birth sex, while overlooking the obvious.

Statistics and history tell us there is a correlation though, which is why we have single sex spaces for women and girls in the first place.

If you keep on making the argument that trans women are men even though they don't have male genitals, male gametes, or testosterone are potential rapists, you make yourself look daft.

In what way are they not men? Low testosterone doesn't mean you aren't a man. Removing your genitals doesn't change your sex. Sex is relevant for purposes of safeguarding, privacy, and dignity as we all know.

If you say that there is no such think as 'ladybrain' without realising that post-menopausal women like me take HRT to maintain emotional balance, you can't expect to be taken seriously by women like me.

People take all sorts of medicines for emotional reasons. Many women don't use hrt - neither of which means it changes your sex or makes you more woman-y or man-y.

In the safe spaces argument, we need to be concerned about safety. If you promote judgement by physical appearance, you are promoting negative stereotypes.

I propose we base it on sex, not appearance or levels of medication or cosmetic surgery.

We have CXRAndy and yourself keep going on about DNA and how it can't be changed, but we can't test the DNA of innocent people just needing to piss every time. Do you believe that criminal genes are detectable? Unless you're prepared to subject yourself to physical exam to check for a prostate gland every time you enter a loo or changing room, you'd best think this through.

It's already been thought through. We have known for aeons that women are more at risk from men than men are from women. We know mixed sex spaces are less safe for women than single sex ones. We know male levels of criminality far exceed female ones, especially sexual crimes. We know women also need privacy and dignity in certain situations.

Your pretence that women don't need or want these spaces, and that men should be allowed in them because occasionally we can't immediately tell what sex someone is, is a ridiculous argument.

 

[Deleted member 159]

No. I've never said so. You keep on asking the same questions and getting the same answer. This leads me to think that you are way too dim to understand the issues.

So that confirms there are only two sexes. You can change sex according to you with drugs or surgery.

Therefore trans is just a social construct.

 

[monkers]

It actually happens

Still occurs, due to the fact liberals have let men access into women's spaces.


I heard a phrase the other, which covers women who don't agree with private safe spaces for women 'Vichy feminists'

Would you class yourself as one of these Monkers?

Sigh ... when you are too dim witted to have a reasoned argument ... just resort to spamming your 'opponent' with nonsense.

Does this give you the sense of 'winning' that you crave?

 

[monkers]

I'm not sure anyone is suggesting that. What is being suggested is that an unfortunate side effect of being accommodating to transwomen is that it provides a legitimate route for a male who otherwise would not have been hanging out in the ladies loos, to hang out in the ladies loos, and whereas previously it may not have occurred to said person to don a dress to fit in, it now does as it is being established as a norm.

That said, I'm fairly sure that most ladies would have no qualms about getting an undesirable out of the ladies toilet regardless of appearance.

The obvious mistake is in the words 'provide a legitimate route'. Loos are not a place to 'hang out' - was the visual imagery intended Ian?

Public loos are places for any person to be able to go to relieve themselves. The private space is the part behind the locking door. The part outside the locking door is a public space. Any person doing criminal activity in the public space is committing a crime regardless of their personal characteristics. If the person is cis gender or trans gender doesn't make a difference. The crime carries the label, not the person.

If we listen to the likes of Badenoch, the EqA needs amendment to clarify the meaning of sex. Ministers are in the position of having legal competence to clarify law. However, the competence is to clarify that which parliament intended. Badenoch needs to show that parliament intended 'biological sex'. She can not, therefore she has no competence to clarify. This is pie in the sky anyway as they won't get to form the next government.

Where I will agree is that the characteristic of 'gender reassignment' would benefit from some further clarification. I've made this point before. It would be helpful if the term 'proposes' was clarified. To my understanding a proposal can not be an unstated matter, it must be a matter of record. The obvious place to record a proposal of transition would be the person requesting help to start transition from their GP. I will agree that saying ''but I'm trans'', at the point of offending, or at arrest, should not be taken as evidence of proposing transition.