Gender again. Sorry!

[monkers]

Did they airbrush her times out? Cos fantastic athlete that she was, her times were not as fast as male cyclists over the same events.

The biggest determinant of performance in most sports is sex.

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https://www.cyclingweekly.com/fitne...ale-cyclists-need-to-train-differently-344365

Millions of dollars are spent on trying to make running shoes that help you go a fraction of a second faster. Millions of dollars are spent developing bike saddles that weigh a few grams less. It's laughable that anybody thinks something as obvious as male body advantage can be dismissed as unrelated to performance in sports.

If you troubled to read the links I provided you'd understand so much more. But of course you won't because nothing must disrupt the official TERF narrative.

What those lived experience athlete narratives help explain are the real reasons that create differences between the performances of male and female athletes as spoken by themselves.

Combine that with the review of the then known scientific data which showed that the societal and cultural differences (blame the patriarchy if you wish) played a bigger part than male puberty or testosterone levels. You of course while claiming we must listen to the scientists rejected it, because it didn't suit the narrative. Likewise the Brighton report (though I acknowledge some of its flaws).

The important point is to stop and think ...

To what extent can handgrip strength alone between males and females be used to predict athletic performance across all disciplines?

Popular opinion is that Podacar is the most successful cyclist in the history of road cycling, though some will still favour Eddy Merckz. Pogacar does not have huge thighs, probably similar or possibly smaller than Pendleton's but to listen to the narrative he too would have beaten Pendleton in a 1km sprint. Hoy needed those thighs because he is tall and heavily built. Proportion is the obvious point.

 

[AuroraSaab]

What those lived experience athlete narratives help explain are the real reasons that create differences between the performances of male and female athletes as spoken by themselves.

And yet the sports records tells us that the biggest determinant of athletic performance is sex not lived experience.

Combine that with the review of the then known scientific data which showed that the societal and cultural differences (blame the patriarchy if you wish) played a bigger part than male puberty or testosterone levels.

It does not show that. Your claim is simply untrue. If it were true no male athlete from a desperately poor background would beat female athletes with top level funding, yet we know that when funding, training, support is the same, men still perform better than women.

You can't possibly suggest the US Olympics women's team is underfunded, yet the Women's World Record for 100m is beaten by 1500 boys and men in the US every year.

To what extent can handgrip strength alone between males and females be used to predict athletic performance across all disciplines?

It isn't. It is one of many, many metrics that indicate superior male performance. You're simply lying when you suggest that decades of sports science has focused only on hand grip.

Popular opinion is that Podacar is the most successful cyclist in the history of road cycling, though some will still favour Eddy Merckz. Pogacar does not have huge thighs, probably similar or possibly smaller than Pendleton's but to listen to the narrative he too would have beaten Pendleton in a 1km sprint. Hoy needed those thighs because he is tall and heavily built. Proportion is the obvious point.

Isn't Pogacar's fastest time over 1km faster than Pendleton's fastest time over 1km? It's not the patriarchy in this case. He has male advantage.

 

[monkers]

And yet the sports records tells us that the biggest determinant of athletic performance is sex not lived experience.

It doesn't, it tells us the biggest determinant is age.

 

[monkers]

Isn't Pogacar's fastest time over 1km faster than Pendleton's fastest time over 1km? It's not the patriarchy in this case. He has male advantage.

They'll be no data. Pogacar is not a track cyclist. I asked Co-pilot for an estimation. It thinks that Pendleton when in her prime would likely be approx 2 seconds faster than Pogacar using her best indoor time and his best outdoor time. We might agree they'd be well-matched. A pity wel'll never see it.

 

[AuroraSaab]

It doesn't, it tells us the biggest determinant is age.

There aren't any US high school girls beating the Women's World Record in the 100m so it's definitely not age. Lots of high school boys do, which proves it's sex.

It's not age that's the biggest determinant of performance in sports, it's sex, because if it was age not sex, 43 year old male Laurel Hubbard wouldn't have qualified for the Olympics in women's weightlifting - a sport where the women qualifiers were early to mid 20's and peak performance is reached at 25/26. He qualified because he had male advantage, one which was so big it exceeded the declining performance that aging brings.

 

[AuroraSaab]

They'll be no data. Pogacar is not a track cyclist. I asked Co-pilot for an estimation. It thinks that Pendleton when in her prime would likely be approx 2 seconds faster than Pogacar using her best indoor time and his best outdoor time. We might agree they'd be well-matched. A pity wel'll never see it.

Here's the factual historical data, not an AI musing.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_world_records_in_track_cycling

I couldn't find a single cycling record where the women's best performance was better than the men's.

This continued denial of male body advantage in sports performance is ridiculous. It requires us to ignore science, history, and the evidence of our own eyes.

 

[Ian H]

And yet the sports records tells us that the biggest determinant of athletic performance is sex not lived experience.

I thought athletes were told to abstain before an event.

 

[monkers]

There aren't any US high school girls beating the Women's World Record in the 100m so it's definitely not age. Lots of high school boys do, which proves it's sex.

Oh you are such an idiot. Athletes decline with age when past their peak - we all do.

 

[monkers]

I couldn't find a single cycling record where the women's best performance was better than the men's.

This continued denial of male body advantage in sports performance is ridiculous. It requires us to ignore science, history, and the evidence of our own eyes.

None of which informs us that trans women as a cohort have enough retained advantage to be faster than natal women.

You really don't understand evidential requirement do you.

 

[monkers]

This continued denial of male body advantage in sports performance is ridiculous. It requires us to ignore science, history, and the evidence of our own eyes.

I'm denying no such thing. Cis male athletes have superior sporting results than cis female athletes. I'm not sure any one is contesting the issue.

What is being contested is that all trans women athletes have such retained male advantage that they will always have superior results than cis women athletes in all sporting disciplines. And then to go on to claim that cis women are at some disadvantage to trans women in playing board games. As Angela Eagle points out, this is a rather disgusting slur on cis women.

 

[monkers]

It does not show that. Your claim is simply untrue. If it were true no male athlete from a desperately poor background would beat female athletes with top level funding, yet we know that when funding, training, support is the same, men still perform better than women.

You can't possibly suggest the US Olympics women's team is underfunded, yet the Women's World Record for 100m is beaten by 1500 boys and men in the US every year.

Every sports coach will tell you that you can not out-train a poor diet. We have record number of malnourished children in our the UK.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40609-023-00285-8

https://academic.oup.com/pch/article-abstract/18/4/200/2647146?redirectedFrom=fulltext

 

[AuroraSaab]

There is no good evidence that men who have chosen to lower their performance by taking hormones reduce that performance to female levels. The research done by the likes of trans identifying men like Joanna Harper and Blair Hamilton is of poor quality, with subjects self reporting their performance.

Even if testosterone is lowered it has already done its job in adult men: height, build, upper body strength, larger oxygen capacity, better athletic heart function. This advantage is not mitigated by hormones.

The women's category is for women, not for men who have hampered their own performance through drugs. We don't let other men on performance lowering medication into the women's category on the basis that they now aren't as good as they used to be.

 

[monkers]

There is no good evidence that men who have chosen to lower their performance by taking hormones reduce that performance to female levels. The research done by the likes of trans identifying men like Joanna Harper and Blair Hamilton is of poor quality, with subjects self reporting their performance.

I doubt that there are any such men.

 

[monkers]

Even if testosterone is lowered it has already done its job in adult men: height, build, upper body strength, larger oxygen capacity, better athletic heart function. This advantage is not mitigated by hormones.

So you will say without evidence. Who are these men you speak of?

 

[monkers]

The women's category is for women, not for men who have hampered their own performance through drugs. We don't let other men on performance lowering medication into the women's category on the basis that they now aren't as good as they used to be.

Again, I'm not aware of any men who are choosing to hamper their own performance through drugs. Who is this ''we'' you speak of? And who are these ''other men'' that ''we'' are blocking from the women's category now that they aren't as good as they used to be?

This is all very mysterious. Are you sure you're not experiencing a fever dream where you've been put in charge of something?