Gender again. Sorry!

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AndyRM

Elder Goth
Surprise surprise

Children to be tested for autism first before cutting off their body parts

I know you've been keen to equate trans people with mental illness but here's a newsflash that will blow your mind and shatter the world of everything you once held to be true (or whatever snappy headline helps you out here):

Autism isn't a mental illness.
 

monkers

Squire
 
I know you've been keen to equate trans people with mental illness but here's a newsflash that will blow your mind and shatter the world of everything you once held to be true (or whatever snappy headline helps you out here):

Autism isn't a mental illness.

35% of children referred to the Tavistock were evaluated as having ASD compared to 2% of the general population. It might not be a mental illness but it's important that the high proliferation of ASD amongst these children is taken into account before they are referred for treatment.
 

icowden

Squire
Runs high incidence with those children exhibiting body dysphoria.
So they will check for autism before quickly deciding to fast track to transing.
Treat all the other conditions first
And you started so well. They will not, in fact "treat all the other conditions first". What has been recommended is quite sensible. Children will be evaluated to ensure that there is a fully rounded picture of their health conditions including whether or not they are on the autistic spectrum. This should have been done all along as it is essential to understanding the possible cause of gender dysphoria and is a strong indicator that any treatment outside of counselling and mental health support should be delayed until that person is older and has a more rounded understanding both of the world, other people and they way that they think and function.
 

CXRAndy

Veteran
If you have a very high incidence of children with autism and body dysphoria.

You do not fast track them to transing.

You get to the root cause of their dysphoria first. In the vast majority of cases, letting the child go through puberty, resolves their dysphoria.


Whats really upsetting for those supporting the methods of the tavistock clinic is, their next generation of trans has been stopped.

This hysterical cultural meltdown will resolve itself now after recent reports, supreme court judgements.

Regrettably there are many thousands destined to be left in the wilderness of abandoned cult ideology with life changing surgery and drug dependency
 

AndyRM

Elder Goth
Pretty much everything I've ever read of the "fast track" to transitioning has always been presented as I just have, in inverted commas. Because it's nonsense. Of course there are options if that's the (damaging) route you absolutely want to go down, which mainly involve going abroad and paying exorbitant sums of money without any of the necessary mental support in place.

The reality is that responsible clinicians assess cases properly and the whole process takes a seriously long time.

But I suppose that's not as alarmist as the whole Red Queen line of,

"Oh sh!t, this kid says they're trans? That's good enough for me, off with their tits/cock. Sign them up for women's sport while we're at it. Who's next?"

won't get much mileage.
 

CXRAndy

Veteran
The reality is that responsible clinicians assess cases properly and the whole process takes a seriously long time.
Where were the responsible clinicians when tavistock were mutilating children?
 
The waiting list was long - referrals were doubling each year, with nobody wondering why that might be - but once seen at the Tavistock children were often prescribed puberty blockers after only a few sessions.

Hannah Barnes, Newsnight journalist:

Screenshot_20250429_083030_Chrome.jpg

3 to 6 hours is not enough time to assess whether a child with complex issues should be put on a medical pathway. How many of these autistic same sex attracted kids would have resolved their dysphoria if not sent down the medical route?

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/health/2024/03/inside-the-collapse-of-the-tavistock-centre

It's even worse in the US, where cross sex hormones and surgery are pretty much available on demand.
 
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Psamathe

Senior Member
Weird aspect to this discussion that I've not noticed in this thread (maybe I missed it) and not widely discussed is the question as to how readily available it is to get a GRC.

I wonder if this is more of the issue and/or the solution.

I can see that if somebody can suddenly decide they are a woman and immediately have full access to single sex spaces then 1 hr later decide to revert to being a man, etc. then I can appreciate objections. But if somebody has to go through all the medical stages, complete "full op", etc. over several years then I can't appreciate the objections. Those are extremes not suggestions, there must be some balance between those two situations.

When Scotland made GRC a lot easier it did raise questions in my own mind.

Trouble is, it's a specialist area so there is no way most of us can have any real view, down to expert psychologists/professionals. Further complicated by somewhat limited NHS resources.

Ian
 

monkers

Squire
Weird aspect to this discussion that I've not noticed in this thread (maybe I missed it) and not widely discussed is the question as to how readily available it is to get a GRC.

I wonder if this is more of the issue and/or the solution.

I can see that if somebody can suddenly decide they are a woman and immediately have full access to single sex spaces then 1 hr later decide to revert to being a man, etc. then I can appreciate objections. But if somebody has to go through all the medical stages, complete "full op", etc. over several years then I can't appreciate the objections. Those are extremes not suggestions, there must be some balance between those two situations.

When Scotland made GRC a lot easier it did raise questions in my own mind.

Trouble is, it's a specialist area so there is no way most of us can have any real view, down to expert psychologists/professionals. Further complicated by somewhat limited NHS resources.

Ian

The waiting lists for a first appointment are incredibly long. I'm told that one person was told that the waiting list to where they applied was 17.5 year long though I think the average is said to be seven. What follows is then a minimum of two years of regular attendance, where both the medical and societal role progress are monitored. The physical appearance is also noted as being akin to the acquired sex.

The number of trans people with a GRC is only about 8400 despite the GRA itself being introduced 21 years ago. Of those the exact number of trans men and trans women is unknown - at least to me.

The lack of resources is the explanation for the waiting list, so much so in fact that when an all party parliamentary select committee considered the evidence, they recommended that self-Id (as is the case in other countries) was the only available fix. The then PM (Theresa May) accepted the recommendations, however she, the government and parliament was being kept busy by Johnson's nonsense and Brexit more generally. She was booted shortly after accepting the recommendations, and not because she had.

As for the position that Arthur one day, Martha the next, and back to Arthur the following day, the panel of experts do not simply look at the medical considerations, but rigorously examine the swathes of evidence required. Unless retired, the applicant must be employed, or at least job seeking ''in role''. They will expect to see a change of name by deed poll, unless the applicant already had an gender appropriate name. Every document must be in the name of the application - house deed, bank details, photo ID including driving licence and passport, all household bills, the lot. Arthur would need to extensively demonstrate by documentation that they live as Martha. Additionally the applicant must sign a statutory deed to say that they intend to live in society in the acquired gender until their death.

The one day Arthur next day Martha notion is a fallacy intending harm to reputation of these people, as is the false allegations that these people transition in order to get closer to women in order to abuse them - there is no evidence that this happens.
 

Psamathe

Senior Member
...
As for the position that Arthur one day, Martha the next, and back to Arthur the following day, the panel of experts do not simply look at the medical considerations, but rigorously examine the swathes of evidence required. Unless retired, the applicant must be employed, or at least job seeking ''in role''. They will expect to see a change of name by deed poll, unless the applicant already had an gender appropriate name. Every document must be in the name of the application - house deed, bank details, photo ID including driving licence and passport, all household bills, the lot. Arthur would need to extensively demonstrate by documentation that they live as Martha. Additionally the applicant must sign a statutory deed to say that they intend to live in society in the acquired gender until their death. ...
I claim no expertise, just basing my thoughts on mainstream press reports. I was thinking more of the situation in Scotland where excerpts of the requirements include https://www.gov.scot/publications/gender-recognition-reform-scotland-bill-more-information/
● applicants do not need to submit a medical diagnosis and evidence to support the application (as current process needs)
● applicants would make a statutory declaration that they have lived in the acquired gender for at least three months before applying (rather than the current period of two years) and that they intend to live permanently in their acquired gender
● the minimum age of applicants would be 16, rather than 18 at present
But I do accept that reports I've seen might not present the full picture or might come from people with their own agendas so I've not spent lots of time researching.

Ian
 
Pretty much everything I've ever read of the "fast track" to transitioning has always been presented as I just have, in inverted commas. Because it's nonsense. Of course there are options if that's the (damaging) route you absolutely want to go down, which mainly involve going abroad and paying exorbitant sums of money without any of the necessary mental support in place.

The reality is that responsible clinicians assess cases properly and the whole process takes a seriously long time.

But I suppose that's not as alarmist as the whole Red Queen line of,

"Oh sh!t, this kid says they're trans? That's good enough for me, off with their tits/cock. Sign them up for women's sport while we're at it. Who's next?"

won't get much mileage.
I wish you where right, however in this topic in no particular order we have had a medical expert in the Australian version of 60 minutes, witnessing she quit het job because she felt whenever patients(children) said they where trans or anything close to that they where fast tracked to that as the only outcome.
We have had a when i posted the twitter link a 23 year old we had transitioned and now detransitioned who also witnessed that at 16 she was ''helped'' with being trans and transitioning but what she actually needed was mental help.(that girl is dutch.)
And then there is the lady from Canada who now wants assisted suicide because the constant pain she is in because of the downsides of gender corrective surgery.


i know in each apart case it was either ignored or claimed the person complaining was either not good at their job or otherwise not qualified to speak, i known only 3 examples don't say much on a larger scale but still same experiences over 3 countries does make it look like make activism should stay out of the hospital wards? and i'm not to confident it is to be honest.
 
But if somebody has to go through all the medical stages, complete "full op", etc. over several years then I can't appreciate the objections. Those are extremes not suggestions, there must be some balance between those two situations.

The objection is that they are still male regardless of having a certificate or not. That fact doesn't change with a piece of paper.
Women's spaces and services aren't rewards for men who have made an effort.

No certificate is required (quite rightly) for those who identify as the opposite sex to have rights and protection just like other characteristics do.
 
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