Gender again. Sorry!

[CXRAndy]

Sandie Peggy wins case NHS.

Crucially though tribunal still doesn't understand the Supreme Court decision


View: https://x.com/i/status/1998021958722793880

 

[Bromptonaut]

The post above quotes the press summary. As it explicitly says that document is intended to assist reporters to understand the judgement and is not part of it.

There was commentary at the time of the SC's decision in For Women Scotland that over time it may be recognised as being more nuanced that it at first seemed or as the Gender Critical crew would like it to be.

This judgement, which is at first instance, on its own facts and not a formal precedent may well be appealed either by the Health Authority or Ms Peggie who by no means won on all counts.

 

[AuroraSaab]

There's certainly some points in the judgement which suggests grounds for Peggie to appeal.
I wouldn't be surprised if she couldn't face going through it all again though. She's had 2 years of the process being the punishment.

 

[bobzmyunkle]

the Gender Critical crew

Ooh!, he's so dismissive.

 

[CXRAndy]

There's certainly some points in the judgement which suggests grounds for Peggie to appeal.
I wouldn't be surprised if she couldn't face going through it all again though. She's had 2 years of the process being the punishment.

I understand she has already began further cases against her union and staff. I doubt she is now so phased about an appeal

 

[monkers]

So you earlier said there are 9 transmen

No I didn't.

 

[monkers]

The saying lies, damn lies and statistics doesn't come out of thin air. there are 301 ways to read the same numbers and give different explanations to them.

It isn't darts. The truth might be a game of 301 to you. There is one way to the truth, and that is to tell it.

 

[monkers]

or laws and regulations

What? It's a mathematical point. If you put things in the wrong groups, cohorts, or classes, then you've messed up.

 

[monkers]

Pretty much fifty is based on what numbers and can you post evidence? and what do you want to say with ''just 9 on a total imprisonment of 90.000''? Should we have this discussion again when it are 500, 1000, or half the prison population? i'm not saying anything like that would happen, but i just think the ''look it's only a small group'' argument is flawed, that is my point.

Fifty fifty doesn't mean fifty. It means half and half. It's a ratio. You're forgiven, your English is way better than my Dutch. About 8500 to 9000 GRCs have been issued. It used to be the case that there were more male to female transitions, but that changed. The prison data is not extrapolated for risk assessment purposes solely within the prison, it also indicates crime level outside of prison in the general population.

 

[CXRAndy]

Of those 9000, how many have have gone on to remove their reconstructive sexual surgery

I'd wager a small percentage

 

[monkers]

I think it was made pretty clear who the monsters are, the point is more what does it take for the ''trans lobby'' to accept perpetrators are gonna be perpetrators then can be trans/male/female and anything in between, but no there is no ''safe space''. instead of finding a middle ground it seems everything that opposed ''trans ideology'' must be defeated of some sorts. That's not how the worlds works.

It is not the fault of women that men have a long history of presenting as women to commit the full range of crimes to avoid detection or evade capture. Neither is it the fault of trans women if men present as trans women to do the same. Maybe men don't feel they need to try so hard to disguise themselves as a trans woman especially if they are tall?

What this means is that both women and trans women are vulnerable to predatory men.

If you trouble to read the judgment issued in the Marie Kelly vs Leonardo case, and the Sandie Peggie case, you see that in both cases, the rulings makes clear that the presence of a trans woman in women's spaces places such as toilets and changing rooms women at increased risk from trans women. It is clear that both are under increased risk from men.

In the Kelly case the judge found no detriment was caused.

In the Peggie case, the judge found that Peggie harassed Upton, so a reverse judgment was found.

Tribunal says nurse's comments 'amounted to harassment'published at 16:19 8 December​

16:19 8 December​

In its judgement, the tribunal examined the incident which took place in the changing room on Christmas Eve 2023 involving Sandie Peggie and Dr Beth Upton.

It says some of Ms Peggie's comments towards Dr Upton "amounted to an incident of harassment" and breached the health board's bullying and harassment policy.

The events on Christmas Eve have been disputed, but the tribunal says that the evidence of Dr Upton should be preferred. It describes the doctor as a more credible witness, and says Ms Peggie questioned Dr Upton in a "intrusive and confrontational" way.

It says Ms Peggie questioning Dr Upton about chromosomes was "a clear invasion of privacy".

There was also a dispute over the intent of a comment where Ms Peggie said Dr Upton's presence "was just like that person in the prisons". This was taken to be a reference to rapist Isla Bryson, who changed gender while waiting to stand trial.

Ms Peggie said in her evidence that she was not aware the case involved a rapist, but the panel said that claim was not credible.

The tribnual also said its conclusion that Ms Peggie's actions amounted to harassment was different to the outcome of a disciplinary hearing, which ruled that there was not enough evidence to uphold the harassment complaint.

The judge makes clear that nurse Sandie Peggie harassed Dr Upton, not the other way around as she had claimed.

 

[CXRAndy]

"intrusive and confrontational"

Get out of the women's changing room.

What a pussy, what kind of man is he

 

[AuroraSaab]

Neither is it the fault of trans women if men present as trans women to do the same.

What's the difference between a man who says he's a transwoman and a man who says he's a transwoman but (according to you) isn't?
There's no difference. They are both men. No discernible difference at all. Classic illustration of how totally bonkers it is to have us believe some men are pretending and some aren't.

 

[monkers]

What's the difference between a man who says he's a transwoman and a man who says he's a transwoman but (according to you) isn't?
There's no difference. They are both men. No discernible difference at all. Classic illustration of how totally bonkers it is to have us believe some men are pretending and some aren't.

You haven't thought this through have you?

You are admitting it is not trans women who are the danger, it is men who are imposters. They are criminals who endanger women, be they cis or trans.

Imposters do not compain to the GP about experiencing gender dysphoria, attend a gender clinic for repeat appointments for not less than two years, each time expressing the urgency of their need to transition. That forms the basis of a diagnosis, also working in their acquiring gender, have changed their name, changed their documentation as far as possible, using hormone treatment, then that is a much different case to a man putting on a cheap dress, wig and shoes and saying to a member of the public ''I should be here I'm a trans woman''.

If somebody tells you, that the diagnosis of gender dysphoria is expressing it, then that obviously needs to be expressed to a psychiatrist with that specialism, not a busybody in the works toilet eyeing everybody with suspicion.

What the Kelly and Peggie cases have together established is that mere presence of a trans woman is not tantamount to harassment - there has to be accompanying evidenced misconduct. Kelly suffered no detriment, Peggie harassed Upton. Those are the judgments we have.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Given that none of those things - the diagnosis, the hormones, the name change - are necessary to be regarded as transgender (except by you it seems) they are irrelevant. There's still no discernible difference between a man with those things and any other man. The level of commitment is irrelevant - their sex remains male.

Dr Upton doesn't have a GRC by the way. It's not the presence of a transwoman either, it's the presence of a male that's the issue.