Gender poll - new and improved

[AuroraSaab]

That gender (a belief) should substitute or override sex (material reality) in law is an ideological position.

 

[Ian H]

That gender (a belief) should substitute or override sex (material reality) in law is an ideological position.

Your belief that it's a belief is merely a belief.

 

[bobzmyunkle]

Your belief that it's a belief is merely a belief.

@Ian H's belief trumps @AuroraSaab's belief.
And obviously nobody's noticed that @Ian H has insisted the argument is narrowed to be merely about identity/orientation.

Thanks for entering the debate as an honest agent @Ian H.

 

[AuroraSaab]

There's no agreement as to what gender even means. What is it if not a subjective belief? Where does it reside? Where's the objective proof of its existence? How do I know what my gender is? It's like having a soul, but even more nebulous. Some people believe they have one, sure, but it's a poor basis on which to constitute legislation that affects everybody, nevermind upending legislation that it has taken women a century to enact.

 

[Ian H]

@Ian H's belief trumps @AuroraSaab's belief.
And obviously nobody's noticed that @Ian H has insisted the argument is narrowed to be merely about identity/orientation.

Thanks for entering the debate as an honest agent @Ian H.

I'm merely expressing a point of view. Others may differ.

 

[AndyRM]

What is it if not an ideology @AndyRM? Genuine question. What is a 'different way of thinking' other than an ideology?
Genuine question in the interest of debate.

Well, as I see it, trans isn't new. It's been around for thousands of years. So it isn't really a different way of thinking, or an ideology.

People are people.

Some are cool with that, some aren't.

Creating a schism between folk isn't a good thing.

I get that this is nebulous as f*ck but I stand by that vaguary.

Take no sh!t, do no harm.

 

[mickle]

"... trans (has) been around for thousands of years. "

Citation required.

 

[AndyRM]

Citation required.

I haven't quoted anyone.

 

[Rusty Nails]

A quick Google search pulled up the following information. This was also discussed on the main, interminable Gender thread at some point.

"Transgender and gender-variant people have been documented across numerous civilizations throughout human history, dating back thousands of years. While the modern term "transgender" was only coined in the 1960s, the experiences and social roles associated with it have existed for millennia.

Notable Historical Examples

• Ancient Mesopotamia (Sumer/Akkad): As early as 3000 BCE, the cult of the goddess Inanna (later Ishtar) included the Gala, priests who were assigned male at birth but adopted feminine names, clothing, and behaviors. Ancient hymns describe Inanna's power to "turn a man into a woman and a woman into a man".
• Ancient Egypt: Records from roughly 1200 BCE, such as the Tale of Two Brothers, describe characters who undergo gender transitions. Archaeological evidence, including a 4,500-year-old burial in Prague, shows biological males buried with feminine grave goods, suggesting early recognized gender-variant identities.
• Greco-Roman Antiquity:
  • The Galli: These were eunuch priestesses of the goddess Cybele who lived as women, often castrating themselves as an act of devotion.
  • Emperor Elagabalus: The Roman emperor (reigned 218–222 CE) reportedly preferred to be called a "lady" rather than a "lord" and allegedly offered vast sums of money to any physician who could provide them with a vagina.

• The Indian Subcontinent: The Hijra (and similar groups like the Kinnar) have occupied a recognized "third gender" role for thousands of years, with mentions in ancient texts like the Ramayana and Mahabharata.
• Indigenous Americas: Many pre-colonial cultures recognized individuals who did not fit the male/female binary, often referred to today under the umbrella term Two-Spirit (a modern term for historical roles like the Navajo nádleehi or Zuni lhamana).
• Southeastern Asia: The Bugis people of Sulawesi, Indonesia, have recognized five distinct gender roles for at least 600 years, including calabai (trans women) and calalai (trans men).
• African Civilizations: In various pre-colonial African societies, such as the Nuer in Sudan and Ethiopia, people assigned female at birth could take on the status of a "social male," marry women, and be considered fathers.

Historical Context and Terminology

• Third Genders: Many civilizations did not use a binary system (only male/female) but instead integrated gender-variant people into specific social, spiritual, or healing roles.
• Evolution of Labels: Historians often use modern terms like "transgender" as a descriptive tool while acknowledging that these individuals understood themselves through their own cultural frameworks, such as "sacred roles" or "third sex" categories.
• Colonial Impact: Many of these traditional gender roles were suppressed or erased during European colonization and the spread of Abrahamic religions, which enforced more rigid gender binaries. "

 

[classic33]

That gender (a belief) should substitute or override sex (material reality) in law is an ideological position.

The WHO say it's a social construct.
"Gender refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed."

 

[classic33]

To add to Rusty Nails post,
Albert Cashier, a figure from the 19th century, was more secretive. He served bravely in over 40 battles as a Union Army soldier in the U.S. Civil War—one of at least 250 people who, though assigned a female sex at birth, fought in the war as men.

 

[bobzmyunkle]

The WHO say it's a social construct.
"Gender refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed."

That might well be the first time I've agreed with anything @classic33 has said on this thread.

 

[AuroraSaab]

A quick Google search pulled up the following information. This was also discussed on the main, interminable Gender thread at some point.

"Transgender and gender-variant people have been documented across numerous civilizations throughout human history, dating back thousands of years. While the modern term "transgender" was only coined in the 1960s, the experiences and social roles associated with it have existed for millennia.

Seriously? Mesopotamian gods? Ancient texts also describe angels, daemons, and various gods/humans who can turn into animals.

This is historical revisionism of ancient practises to suit a particular viewpoint. We have no idea if males priests wearing feminine garb in 3000BCE was anything more significant than a sign of devotion to a female goddess.

Historical Context and Terminology

• Third Genders: Many civilizations did not use a binary system (only male/female) but instead integrated gender-variant people into specific social, spiritual, or healing roles.

Funny that it's almost exclusively men who are these third genders, like Fa'afafine in Samoa and Hijrah in India. It's because a third gender is a way of a patriarchal society dealing with effeminate men; a handy way to kick them out of manhood.

• Colonial Impact: Many of these traditional gender roles were suppressed or erased during European colonization and the spread of Abrahamic religions, which enforced more rigid gender binaries. "

Pretty insulting to tell the native Americans, the South American Indians, or Africans they didn't know that sex was binary until white folks showed up. They seemed to manage to reproduce and breed livestock pretty successfully before Europeans insisted there were only 2 sexes.

This is all revisionist nonsense.

 

[AuroraSaab]

The WHO say it's a social construct.
"Gender refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed."

So its existence is a belief then. Or in other words a load of stereotypes because (if it's not material) how can you know what your gender is without comparing yourself to a list of the socially constructed, ie made up, characteristics associated with women, men, girls and boys?

You can only know you're not 'boy' gender if you have a list of 'boy gender' things to match yourself against and fall short of ticking all the boxes. 'Gender' is predicated on regressive, sexist, homophobic stereotypes that we had consigned to the dustbin until about 15 years ago. How depressing that kids can't be/do/wear what they want without being told they aren't boys or girls.

 

[bobzmyunkle]

This is all revisionist nonsense.

It might be, or it might contain a kernel of truth.
Is anyone denying that there are is a group of men who believe they are women?

The contentious issue is the statement 'trans women are women' and everything that implies. Whether @Ian H likes it or not that is ideology.