Gulf War No.37: Iranistan

[PurplePenguin]

Islamic fundamentalist! WTF does that mean? It’s just another made up abstract term by Western policymakers.

In the modern world, there a two instruments used by the ruling classes to keep everyone in check and create consensus.

In the West, it’s the flag (Nationalism). We can thank France for creating the modern nation state. Examples of Nationalism and its destruction are all around us. You only have visit the war graves in Northern France and Belgium,

In the East, it is the tribe.

So, what do you do in places like Afghanistan, Iran or Pakistan where there are multiple tribes under an artificially created entity (the nation state)? You find a common identifier and promote that as the glue that holds society together. Khomeni did it in Iran, Zia in Pakistan and the Mujahideen in Afghanistan. Explore the culture of these countries prior to the events of the late 70s and 80s. They were were liberal and progressive.

So, those three countries are not different from each other.

Past and present are not the same.

 

[BoldonLad]

But the Fatwah against Rushdie came from the Iranians...
On February 14, 1989, Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini issued a fatwa (religious decree) ordering the death of British author Salman Rushdie and his publishers, following accusations that his novel, The Satanic Verses, was blasphemous against Islam.

Presumably, not EVERY Iranian?

Just because whoever is our PM at the time, says something, or does something, it does not mean that EVERYONE in the UK thinks it is appropriate.

We can of course attempt to the gauge "the public mood", but, we struggle to do that accurately in our own Country, how accurate are we when trying to do the same in another Country, possibly with different culture, different religion etc

Pronouncements on what "the Iranian People" want, by outsiders (I include Iranians who have not lived there since the days of the Shah, with little or no interaction with those back in Iran, as outsiders) are highly questionable, IMHO.

 

[Pblakeney]

I didn't read any of your posts as being illogically pacifist, but rather suggesting that avoiding wars is better than starting them. That doesn't mean to say that Ukraine should roll over once invaded.

You are quite correct in your initial conclusion.
This thread is specifically about Iran, and a war that didn't have to begin. Of course Ukraine is entitled to defend itself. Iran too come to that.

 

[Pross]

And while people are understandably focused elsewhere...

View attachment 13610

Out of interest, how does Israel fund such a high amount of “defence” spending? It’s not a country I associate with any notable industry but seems to constantly be at war. I can understand that history means they need to be prepared to defend themselves but their wars are increasingly due to them being the aggressor.

 

[Pblakeney]

But you said bombs etc are never the way to resolve conflicts. You didn't give the impression you were only talking about the Iran situation as it was last week.

I'm certainly not in favour of Trump trying to start WW3 with this conflict and am glad that Starmer is acting the way he is for example given where we are now.

The conversation was about Iran. Do I have to mention that every time I post in a thread about Iran.
I was specifically referring to Iran over the past 7 days, and the future. Happy to extend that to other similar events.

 

[All uphill]

Iran is not a made up country like Pakistan. Khomeini didn't unify de country in any sense because it didn't need unifying. The Persian traditions like Norooz and Yalda, and others are shared across ethnic and religious groups, that shared culture is what unifies the country and existed long before islam. The mullahs actually actively try to discourage those traditions.

Regarding islamic fundamentalist society, in Pakistan seems to be trivial to whip up a mob with accusations of blasphemy, in Iran you'd get a meh, can I join in (the blasphemy).

You've been there much more recently than me, so I'm cautious about questioning what you say, but...

do your observations apply just to the sophisticated city dwellers, or to the rural poor as well?

 

[Pblakeney]

This was PB's reply to AurorasSaab's post below​

Hence questioning the pacifist stance

This is a thread about Iran, not past wars.

 

[briantrumpet]

Out of interest, how does Israel fund such a high amount of “defence” spending? It’s not a country I associate with any notable industry but seems to constantly be at war. I can understand that history means they need to be prepared to defend themselves but their wars are increasingly due to them being the aggressor.

I'd wondered the same myself. Mega $s from the US in various forms? Its agriculture is quite productive, but I can't see agriculture funding such an extensive military and intelligence service operation that is sprawling quite widely now, and I assume does quite a lot of R&D.

 

[Pblakeney]

I don't know what the outcome of the escalation is going to be. I do know Iran has made no moves towards being less oppressive towards their own population so far, and seems intent on being a malign influence elsewhere. Whether regime change comes about or not, and what that results in, the current government isn't going to abandon radical fundamentalist Islam of its own accord.

Regime change is guaranteed as the leader is dead. What is yet to be found out is whether the new regime will be to Netanyahu and Donnie's preference. Bombing the people of Iran is not going to help.

 

[Moodyman]

In the Wakhan Valley there is a market held each week in no mans land on an island in the river that divides Tajikistan and Afghanistan. It's attended by people from both countries. They speak the same language, have many of the same ancestors and share a common history that goes back centuries. Today, though, they have very little in common in day to day life. One side changed a lot under the Soviet Union.

Sure, Farsi is like Hindi/Urdu, but when you cross the border from Iran to Pakistan, it's almost impossible to describe the extent of the cultural change.

I went from one Baluchistan to another Baluchistan. I encountered little difference.

The mistake most Western travellers make is treating Eastern countries as single entities. Whereas they’re made up of many disparate groups.

Think Spain (Basque, Catalan, Castilian), but turbo charged.

NW Iran, is closer to the culture of the Caucasus - Azeri.

Eastern and Southern Pakistan is closer to India. Western Pakistan closer to Afghanistan. SW Pakistan is culturally very close to SE Iran.

Spoken Urdu is Hindi written in a Persian script.

Spoken Hindi is a modern form of old Sanskrit and Persian, but written in a Sanskrit script.

Anyone able to read Farsi can read Urdu, but can’t read Hindi.

Anybody able to speak Farsi, won’t be able to converse in Urdu or Hindi.

Anybody able to speak Urdu can speak Hindi, but won’t be able to read Hindi.

Confused? I don’t blame you.

 

[C R]

But the Fatwah against Rushdie came from the Iranians...
On February 14, 1989, Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini issued a fatwa (religious decree) ordering the death of British author Salman Rushdie and his publishers, following accusations that his novel, The Satanic Verses, was blasphemous against Islam.

It came from Khomeini, most Iranians distance themselves from the fatwa. That's my point about the difference between Iranian society in general and that of its near neighbours, you are more likely to find an Emirati or a Saudi that supports the fatwa than an Iranian.

 

[Pblakeney]

Out of interest, how does Israel fund such a high amount of “defence” spending? It’s not a country I associate with any notable industry but seems to constantly be at war. I can understand that history means they need to be prepared to defend themselves but their wars are increasingly due to them being the aggressor.

They get $billions from the US to start with.

 

[BoldonLad]

Out of interest, how does Israel fund such a high amount of “defence” spending? It’s not a country I associate with any notable industry but seems to constantly be at war. I can understand that history means they need to be prepared to defend themselves but their wars are increasingly due to them being the aggressor.

I believe they have a significant Software Industry, particularly in the security, surveillance type sector. Also, wasn't some of the ire of pro Palestine protestors directed at Israeli arms manufacturers, based in the UK.

 

[Moodyman]

I'd wondered the same myself. Mega $s from the US in various forms? Its agriculture is quite productive, but I can't see agriculture funding such an extensive military and intelligence service operation that is sprawling quite widely now, and I assume does quite a lot of R&D.

There is a guaranteed baseline military aid from US to Israel of c. $3.5bn per annum.

In addition to that, the US provides additional support in times of conflict with Hezbollah, Palestinians, Syria or anybody else locally.

 

[AndyRM]

I believe they have a significant Software Industry, particularly in the security, surveillance type sector. Also, wasn't some of the ire of pro Palestine protestors directed at Israeli arms manufacturers, based in the UK.

I don't think there have been any protests at Pearson's on Scotswood Road, but it's Israeli.