How to Win Friends and Influence People

[Rusty Nails]

German elections looks fairly complicated to me, given the UK system could be summarised in about six paragraphs.

https://www.dw.com/en/german-election-process/a-37805756

The qualities of a process should be judged by its outcomes and benefits rather than just its simplicity.

Our system has seen us, in the past 60+ years fall in influence and aspects such as manufacturing, education, and more recently even the NHS has lost its premier position in world standings. I am not sure when we last had a government that was voted for by the majority of those who voted, never mind the electorate.

Germany, which we seem to be comparing ourselves to, seems to have thrived in that same period.

Their political systems had to have a big reboot after WW2, but they learned from that and moved on. IMO we, as a country that was successful in WW2 (with a little lot of help from our friends) felt we had little to learn and carried on see-sawing politically because that had always been the British way.

 

[Craig the cyclist]

It's almost like they have no desire to form a government. 1st past the post only ever favours the Conservatives.

Even when the Labour party win?

 

[icowden]

Even when the Labour party win?

That's relatively rare and usually happens when Labour become centerist. Conservatives have had power for 47 out of 75 years since the 2nd world war.

Labour got in for 5 years after the 2nd world war. Then you had Con for 12 years and 4 prime ministers. Then lab for 6 years, con for 4, lab for 3 - the most volatile it ever seems to have been. Then we are at Thatcher / Major for 17 years. Then Blair/Brown for 13 years. Then Con ever since. The Conservatives have complained that electoral boundaries favour Labour (even though there have been fewer years of Labour in power) and have now redrawn boundaries which should create about 10 more Conservative MPs.

Hopefully at the next election we will see some change. I'm not anti-conservative but a government like this one is insane. The "Party of Business" has done more to destroy business than any government ever. The Party of "free markets" took us out of one.

We need politicians like Rory Stewart rather than the coke guzzling journo narcissists in charge at the moment.

 

[BoldonLad]

That's relatively rare and usually happens when Labour become centerist. Conservatives have had power for 47 out of 75 years since the 2nd world war.

Labour got in for 5 years after the 2nd world war. Then you had Con for 12 years and 4 prime ministers. Then lab for 6 years, con for 4, lab for 3 - the most volatile it ever seems to have been. Then we are at Thatcher / Major for 17 years. Then Blair/Brown for 13 years. Then Con ever since. The Conservatives have complained that electoral boundaries favour Labour (even though there have been fewer years of Labour in power) and have now redrawn boundaries which should create about 10 more Conservative MPs.

Hopefully at the next election we will see some change. I'm not anti-conservative but a government like this one is insane. The "Party of Business" has done more to destroy business than any government ever. The Party of "free markets" took us out of one.

We need politicians like Rory Stewart rather than the coke guzzling journo narcissists in charge at the moment.

Let me start by saying... I did not vote for Boris

Using your figures, Labour have been in power for 28 year of my lifetime, Conservatives 47 (approximately, I am "only" 74, and at least one of the periods of power was a coalition, but, lets not quibble about that). One would have thought, in 28 years the could have done a few things to get people "on-side".

Could it be that Labour have simply failed to convince people (the electorate) that they are a better option?

Personally, I am not a tax dodging, super rich, Non-Dom, so, not really a "Boris Man", but, Labour have failed to inspire me, for most of my lifetime. In actual practice, I live in an area where they weigh the Labour votes, rather than count them, so, which ever way I vote makes little difference, in practice.

 

[icowden]

Could it be that Labour have simply failed to convince people (the electorate) that they are a better option?

Well obviously. But they don't seem to learn from that. They constantly elect people like Kinnock and Corbyn to be leader, and when they do have someone electable (Blair, David Milliband, possibly Keir Starmer) who appeals more to the centre ground they immediately start to have internal civil wars.

 

[BoldonLad]

Well obviously. But they don't seem to learn from that. They constantly elect people like Kinnock and Corbyn to be leader, and when they do have someone electable (Blair, David Milliband, possibly Keir Starmer) who appeals more to the centre ground they immediately start to have internal civil wars.

Quite. So, how will redrawing the Electoral Boundaries change than?, other than a complete gerrymandering job. Labour need to get their act together, but, based on past performance, I am not holding my breath.

 

[winjim]

Well obviously. But they don't seem to learn from that. They constantly elect people like Kinnock and Corbyn to be leader, and when they do have someone electable (Blair, David Milliband, possibly Keir Starmer) who appeals more to the centre ground they immediately start to have internal civil wars.

Labour often get accused of fighting internal battles and it does frustrate me, but let's not forget that the entire Brexit project was an attempt by Cameron to settle an internal dispute within the Conservative party. He failed, but Johnson succeeded through the ruthless method of withdrawing the whip from any dissenters.

 

[BoldonLad]

Labour often get accused of fighting internal battles and it does frustrate me, but let's not forget that the entire Brexit project was an attempt by Cameron to settle an internal dispute within the Conservative party. He failed, but Johnson succeeded through the ruthless method of withdrawing the whip from any dissenters.

I don't doubt that the Conservatives (Lib-Dems, Greens, etc etc) have internal divisions (it seems inevitable to me), but, it would appear they are better at. presenting an suitable front to the electorate.

 

[Archie_tect]

What's best for the UK is not what's presented to the electorate to vote on... but it is what it is and if the best is this crop of Conservatives, deemed to be the most capable out of the Conservative MPs in Parliament, then we have little to look forward to.

The Labour Party needs to stop wearing its heart on its sleeve because the Media frenzy that delights on the slightest weakness will beat it to a pulp every time.

 

[the snail]

Labour often get accused of fighting internal battles and it does frustrate me, but let's not forget that the entire Brexit project was an attempt by Cameron to settle an internal dispute within the Conservative party. He failed, but Johnson succeeded through the ruthless method of withdrawing the whip from any dissenters.

Exactly, Cameron, May, Johnson 3 of the worst PMs in the history of the UK. People have no problem voting for them. In Johnson's case he gets a free ride, see above - Corbyn branded antisemitic despite never having said anything antisemitic, Johnson has written antisemitic stuff ( as well as his homophobic and racist bile) but that's fine apparently.

 

[icowden]

Exactly, Cameron, May, Johnson 3 of the worst PMs in the history of the UK. People have no problem voting for them. In Johnson's case he gets a free ride, see above - Corbyn branded antisemitic despite never having said anything antisemitic, Johnson has written antisemitic stuff ( as well as his homophobic and racist bile) but that's fine apparently.

Well Johnson's cute and funny with funny hair. See the man with funny hair. Isn't he funny?

My problem with Corbyn is his huge failure to actually oppose anything the Conservatives did.

 

[winjim]

I don't doubt that the Conservatives (Lib-Dems, Greens, etc etc) have internal divisions (it seems inevitable to me), but, it would appear they are better at. presenting an suitable front to the electorate.

I think in the past they've been a bit like a feuding family. Squabbling amongst themselves but always pulling together to see off any external threat. But that was always some parliamentary threat from the Labour party or whatever which nobody is really interested in. When it came to Brexit however, it managed to split the country so perfectly that they were able to weaponise it and could afford to load the party with sycophants, expel the dissenters and still smash through an eighty seat majority.

What that tells us for opposition strategy I don't know, unless they are somehow able to engineer a situation as divisive as Brexit and somehow take advantage of it.

 

[mjr]

Could it be that Labour have simply failed to convince people (the electorate) that they are a better option?

Not necessarily. I seem to recall there was quite a long run in the late 20th century where Labour were winning more votes but Conservatives were winning more seats. Unfortunately, Labour seem to get complacent in power and fail to make the voting system fair until it's too late. For examples, see the Plant Commission in 1993 (started by Labour in Opposition, not included in 1997 manifesto), the Jenkins Commission Recommendations in 1998 (not implemented) and Arbuthnott Commission Recommendations in 2006.