Incredibly brave young women in Iran...

[C R]

To be honest, i really don't think they care, they explain it in a other way anyway. Would be interesting to find a way to reach the silent majority.(suppressing a small group is an issue, suppressing a large part of the population is a problem. )

That silent majority are now protesting. The government is supported by a minority that hold on to power by force.

 

[Rusty Nails]

I had thought about starting a thread on Iran, and indeed on other topics, but the reality of this forum is that most threads eventually descend into snarkiness, foul language, or personal abuse and I'm not up for that at the moment.

Of course the institutionalised oppression of women in places like Iran Afghanistan and elsewhere, are far worse, no one would deny that.

But they're all symptomatic of the same very poor attitude towards women.
Vigilance is required everywhere it would seem.

I suppose it's because the concept that women should be equal is still relatively new even in the West.

Without any particular emphasis on any of the above quotes they are all interesting in the way this thread could go.

What is happening in Iran is far worse than is happening in our country and most others but is a lot more than just symptomatic of the same poor attitude to women as the world in general. Attitudes in most countries have been changing in recent years but it is as if, with this specific aspect, time has stood still in Iran, with such oppression being virtually enshrined in law. This, to a great extent is also being mirrored in Aghanistan now that The Taliban are back in control. There is at least one common factor in this, which is the religion of Islam, or at least the use of that religion by the hard line clerics and rulers, to justify the oppression of women...although it is clear they do not regard it as oppression. It is difficult to blame a religion, because they are nothing but theories (very often quite similar) that mean very little until interpreted and exploited by humans as a means of moralising, control and power over other humans, but it does seem that this malign side of religious application is more prevalent in some Islamic religious theocracies/autocracies.

It can be difficult to talk about this without the elephant in the room, that of racism, being raised, but I do admit to having misgivings about the religion of Islam because of the prevalence and severity of the oppression of those states run by its religious leaders. I also have misgivings about all religions but luckily the power and influence of most, if not all, of them have waned a lot in the past few centuries.

It is a tragedy for those countries, especially the women of those countries, that they are oppressing a huge number of their population and wasting the potential of those people, holding back the development of those countries as modern states.

I am not sure what can, or will, be done by other countries to influence this as countries like Iran and middle eastern countries in general are subject to the use by and influences of larger power bases for their own purposes. At the same time I think it does the women of Iran a disservice by comparing their plight to that of the issue of poor attitudes to women in the world in general.

On re-reading this post it is not as concise and insightful as I hoped it might be when i started it, but it does reflect my honest and rather cynical views about organised religion, especially when used as a basis for government.

 

[C R]

Without any particular emphasis on any of the above quotes they are all interesting in the way this thread could go.

What is happening in Iran is far worse than is happening in our country and most others but is a lot more than just symptomatic of the same poor attitude to women as the world in general. Attitudes in most countries have been changing in recent years but it is as if, with this specific aspect, time has stood still in Iran, with such oppression being virtually enshrined in law. This, to a great extent is also being mirrored in Aghanistan now that The Taliban are back in control. There is at least one common factor in this, which is the religion of Islam, or at least the use of that religion by the hard line clerics and rulers, to justify the oppression of women...although it is clear they do not regard it as oppression. It is difficult to blame a religion, because they are nothing but theories (very often quite similar) that mean very little until interpreted and exploited by humans as a means of moralising, control and power over other humans, but it does seem that this malign side of religious application is more prevalent in some Islamic religious theocracies/autocracies.

It can be difficult to talk about this without the elephant in the room, that of racism, being raised, but I do admit to having misgivings about the religion of Islam because of the prevalence and severity of the oppression of those states run by its religious leaders. I also have misgivings about all religions but luckily the power and influence of most, if not all, of them have waned a lot in the past few centuries.

It is a tragedy for those countries, especially the women of those countries, that they are oppressing a huge number of their population and wasting the potential of those people, holding back the development of those countries as modern states.

I am not sure what can, or will, be done by other countries to influence this as countries like Iran and middle eastern countries in general are subject to the use by and influences of larger power bases for their own purposes. At the same time I think it does the women of Iran a disservice by comparing their plight to that of the issue of poor attitudes to women in the world in general.

On re-reading this post it is not as concise and insightful as I hoped it might be when i started it, but it does reflect my honest and rather cynical views about organised religion, especially when used as a basis for government.

I think there are a couple of things that need untangling.

Regarding islam as a form of government, I think you'll find that the protesters are in full agreement with you. They've had enough of it.

The racism bit is slightly different. The Iranian people are fighting what one would think would be a common enemy of western values, and yet, the support in western society in general is fairly muted. Compare with the support for Ukraine with posts shared and reshared by everyone and every celebrity jumping on the bandwagon. Anecdotally, in the only social media I follow regularly, other than Iranians, it is mainly Ukrainians that are posting about the protests in Iran.

I guess that part of the problem is that the progressives that buy the line about the head cover being an empowered choice have to face up to the fact that it is a choice as long as the mullahs can't have their way. They probably find it difficult to reconcile complaining about head cover bans in here with a large number of muslims saying that the head cover is a dehumanising imposition.

 

[theclaud]

I guess that part of the problem is that the progressives that buy the line about the head cover being an empowered choice have to face up to the fact that it is a choice as long as the mullahs can't have their way. They probably find it difficult to reconcile complaining about head cover bans in here with a large number of muslims saying that the head cover is a dehumanising imposition.

Can both things not be true in different contexts? That where one is forced or pressured to cover up, then removing the covering is an act of liberation, but where a woman is abused in the street because her hijab is a signifier of Muslim identity, it might be an act of defiance or liberation to keep it?

 

[mudsticks]

Without any particular emphasis on any of the above quotes they are all interesting in the way this thread could go.

What is happening in Iran is far worse than is happening in our country and most others but is a lot more than just symptomatic of the same poor attitude to women as the world in general. Attitudes in most countries have been changing in recent years but it is as if, with this specific aspect, time has stood still in Iran, with such oppression being virtually enshrined in law. This, to a great extent is also being mirrored in Aghanistan now that The Taliban are back in control. There is at least one common factor in this, which is the religion of Islam, or at least the use of that religion by the hard line clerics and rulers, to justify the oppression of women...although it is ckear they do not regard it as oppression. It is difficult to blame a religion, because they are nothing but theories (very often quite similar) that mean very little until interpreted and exploited by humans as a means of moralising, control and power over other humans, but it does seem that this malign side of religious application is more prevalent in some Islamic religious theocracies/autocracies.

It can be difficult to talk about this without the elephant in the room, that of racism, being raised, but I do admit to having misgivings about the religion of Islam because of the prevalence and severity of the oppression of those states run by its religious leaders. I also have misgivings about all religions but luckily the power and influence of most, if not all, of them have waned a lot in the past few centuries.

It is a tragedy for those countries, especially the women of those countries, that they are oppressing a huge number of their population and wasting the potential of those people, holding back the development of those countries as modern states.

I am not sure what can, or will, be done by other countries to influence this as countries like Iran and middle eastern countries in general are subject to the use by and influences of larger power bases for their own purposes. At the same time I think it does the women of Iran a disservice by comparing their plight to that of the issue of poor attitudes to women in the world in general.

On re-reading this post it is not as concise and insightful as I hoped it might be when i started it, but it does reflect my honest and rather cynical views about organised religion, especially when used as a basis for government.

It does no disservice to the women of Iran to recognise that the roots of the oppression of women are the same the world over..

Sure its just done with varying degrees of severity, with a range of excuses made such as 'religion' or 'culture' or 'thats just how things are'.

Leveraged in many and various ways, via abuses of power, fear, violence, deprivation, silencing, sidelining and coercion in many forms.

But it's all to achieve the same end, control of women, it's just the methodologies used that vary.

I think there are a couple of things that need untangling.

Regarding islam as a form of government, I think you'll find that the protesters are in full agreement with you. They've had enough of it.

The racism bit is slightly different. The Iranian people are fighting what one would think would be a common enemy of western values, and yet, the support in western society in general is fairly muted. Compare with the support for Ukraine with posts shared and reshared by everyone and every celebrity jumping on the bandwagon. Anecdotally, in the only social media I follow regularly, other than Iranians, it is mainly Ukrainians that are posting about the protests in Iran.

I guess that part of the problem is that the progressives that buy the line about the head cover being an empowered choice have to face up to the fact that it is a choice as long as the mullahs can't have their way. They probably find it difficult to reconcile complaining about head cover bans in here with a large number of muslims saying that the head cover is a dehumanising imposition.

I'd have thought that the progressive view would be more that it 'should' be a free choice..
To have one's head or arms legs torso, or whatever covered or uncovered, for it to be a personal choice, for religious reasons or other.

Uninfluenced by anyone elses opinions or reactions..
Of course it's often difficult to tease out 'free choice' from 'not really much choice' given the likely consequences of 'choosing' to do differently from social norm

I don't believe in head cover 'bans' any more than head coverings being compulsory.
Why can't women just choose, for themselves, free of risk of harassment either way??

But there seems to be this need to control, or at least strong need to influence womens appearance so it meets the approval of the 'male gaze' in some way or another.

All dressed up as or excused by patriachal religion, or cultural norms or whatever..

It happens in the west too, just in other ways ..

 

[All uphill]

A debate requires some degree of disagreement. Is there anyone here that doesn’t find the murder of these brave women abhorrent, or that supports the oppressive regime?

We could discuss and disagree on the hoped for and feared next steps.

I lived in Iran and saw the changes leading up to the revolution which resulted in this awful theocracy. I fear that the heroic efforts of the current protestors are unlikely to result in a safe and equitable society.

 

[mudsticks]

btw @C R

What do you - or your wife - make of the statement released by Ali Larijani??

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/oct/12/iran-hijab-law-protest-ali-larijani

A sign of hope ?

Or just a sop for western consumption hoping that we'll all think it's sorted, and stop paying so much attention ??

 

[C R]

btw @C R

What do you - or your wife - make of the statement released by Ali Larijani??

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/oct/12/iran-hijab-law-protest-ali-larijani

A sign of hope ?

Or just a sop for western consumption hoping that we'll all think it's sorted, and stop paying so much attention ??

Maybe, if it really means that the regime starts to crack.

Can both things not be true in different contexts? That where one is forced or pressured to cover up, then removing the covering is an act of liberation, but where a woman is abused in the street because her hijab is a signifier of Muslim identity, it might be an act of defiance or liberation to keep it?

I knew I was being a bit blunt, and should have taken longer to develop that point. My thinking regarding head cover and muslim identity is along the lines of people like Maryam Namazie. She and others like her articulate it much better than I could, like Khadija Khan in here

http://www.sedaa.org/2022/09/after-...ime-for-hijab-apologists-to-take-a-back-seat/

 

[C R]

We could discuss and disagree on the hoped for and feared next steps.

I lived in Iran and saw the changes leading up to the revolution which resulted in this awful theocracy. I fear that the heroic efforts of the current protestors are unlikely to result in a safe and equitable society.

Yes, the way Khomeini hijacked the revolution and did away with the opposition was awful.

For anyone wanting to understand that period, Marjane Satrapi's Persepolis is a very good introduction. She lived through the revolution, and her family were politically involved in the fight against Muhammad Reza's regime, but they were secular and ended up on the wrong side of what the revolution became.

 

[C R]

Regarding the current situation in Iran this was quite informative:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001cpxy

The speakers are Iranians with recent experience of life in there.

TL;DR version. There's been a de facto relaxation of hijab rules for a long while now. Raisi wanted to make his mark by trying to roll back time and the situation exploded. What will happen? Anything could happen.

 

[C R]

We could discuss and disagree on the hoped for and feared next steps.

I lived in Iran and saw the changes leading up to the revolution which resulted in this awful theocracy. I fear that the heroic efforts of the current protestors are unlikely to result in a safe and equitable society.

Something someone said, the current regime seems to be much more ruthless in order to hold on to power than Muhammad Reza ever was prepared to be.

 

[All uphill]

Something someone said, the current regime seems to be much more ruthless in order to hold on to power than Muhammad Reza ever was prepared to be.

That's a difficult comparison to make, but I suspect it is true.

The Shah probably knew at some level that he could only hang on with public consent. The heirs of the revolution were imo only concerned with god's opinion, and amazingly he agreed with everything they did.

 

[mudsticks]

That's a difficult comparison to make, but I suspect it is true.

The Shah probably knew at some level that he could only hang on with public consent. The heirs of the revolution were imo only concerned with god's opinion, and amazingly he agreed with everything they did.

Of course western meddling in the affairs of Iran and neighbouring countries, mostly for oil greedy self interest, is all added into the toxic mix, and still influences what goes on / what human rights abuses get conveniently ignored in the name of political expediency / greed.

Another good reason why we should have transitioned far more swiftly away from hydrocarbon dependency decades ago - shame on the oil corps* for deliberately standing in the way of that actually happening much faster.

* They should be up in court for crimes against humanity / ecology - in my book - not trying to greenwash their image with supposed cycing sponsorship - the filthy bunch

Same with human rights in Saudi n all that too - we have to 'hold our noses' around those regimes cos we're so dependant globally on the black stuff - it all stinks in so many ways

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

If they really 'don't care' at all, then they wouldn't be trying to suppress footage getting out .

Because they care about power, allowing protest isn't showing their power.

The more that footage and reporting gets out the harder it is to try to make out that all these young people being killed are as a result of mysterious 'falls from high buildings'.

No, they are just publiclicy hanged for supporting the uprisining. Probably getting Allah involveld along the way, just like when they hanged that boxer a few years ago. Different reason from protest same end result.

The less the regime is believed, and the more their awful wrongdoings are exposed, the greater the likelihood of these protests continuing, momentum building and thereby gaining even more widespread support.

That is wishfull thinking, don't get me wrong, i hope you're correct and i'm wrong but looking at the past 10/20 years it doesn't look like it. We have had many similar movements, not much did change. In Afghanistan lots of western money, blood, and lifes did change a lot, only to be overturned again not even 2 months after the west leaving.
I think what is needed is more modern religions leaders.

These protests may not yet be successful in their aims, in their fight for freedom.
The powers that be may be successful in their crackdown.
We don't yet know.

They are as a gun i stronger then a voice, because speaking after they just released a machine gun round on you is kind of troublesome.
We have seen it many times.

But our continued support by talking about it, keeping it in the news, and sharing this information widely, is one tiny bit of help we can give to these brave souls in their time of dire need.

oh i support them, and maybe i'm finally wrong and it does has it's effect, just as most of the world assumed Ukraine wouldn't stand a change against Russia i mean, it can still happen, but it's an difficult road.

In fact those on the ground repeatedly ask us to do that.

So why wouldn't we??

i'm fine supporting them i just don't see how much it will matter from my sofa against an regime that is isolated, ruthless and careless about whatever consequences.

That silent majority are now protesting. The government is supported by a minority that hold on to power by force.

Unfortnutally that doesn't seem to add up with what we see from protest(unless you can see more from other sources, we can't see/read), There are 83million people living in Iran if the majority of them would actually protest, Iran would probably not have enough forces/prisons/ammonution to arrest/surpress etc. them all. So it seems and i'm again hope i'm wrong it's more likely to be a minorty (the protestors) against a minority(the regime) not a fair fight tough.

 

[mudsticks]

Because they care about power, allowing protest isn't showing their power.

No, they are just publiclicy hanged for supporting the uprisining. Probably getting Allah involveld along the way, just like when they hanged that boxer a few years ago. Different reason from protest same end result.


That is wishfull thinking, don't get me wrong, i hope you're correct and i'm wrong but looking at the past 10/20 years it doesn't look like it. We have had many similar movements, not much did change. In Afghanistan lots of western money, blood, and lifes did change a lot, only to be overturned again not even 2 months after the west leaving.
I think what is needed is more modern religions leaders.

They are as a gun i stronger then a voice, because speaking after they just released a machine gun round on you is kind of troublesome.
We have seen it many times.


oh i support them, and maybe i'm finally wrong and it does has it's effect, just as most of the world assumed Ukraine wouldn't stand a change against Russia i mean, it can still happen, but it's an difficult road.

i'm fine supporting them i just don't see how much it will matter from my sofa against an regime that is isolated, ruthless and careless about whatever consequences.

Unfortnutally that doesn't seem to add up with what we see from protest(unless you can see more from other sources, we can't see/read), There are 83million people living in Iran if the majority of them would actually protest, Iran would probably not have enough forces/prisons/ammonution to arrest/surpress etc. them all. So it seems and i'm again hope i'm wrong it's more likely to be a minorty (the protestors) against a minority(the regime) not a fair fight tough.

Well no, nobody was ever suggesting it was a 'fair fight'
That's not how oppression, nor how oppressive regimes work.

All we can do is keep up the pressure, as best we can, maintain exposure, keep this in the news and keep up the support.

The eventual outcome is out of our hands.

Defeatist, pessimistic, and even cynical language, leads to hopelessness, and ultimately inaction, that definitely won't achieve anything.