Israel / Palestine

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C R

C R

Guru
monkers said:
Just to note here that before his death Gerald Kaufman made powerful speeches along these lines in parliament. Such things rarely make the headlines however.


View: https://youtu.be/Osr_1ySuF6A
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Self hating jew, innit.
 
First Aspect

First Aspect

Über Member
AuroraSaab said:
There's lots of things in the middle east we should have done differently but unfortunately we are where we are. I don't see how recognising a state run by terrorists will do much other than give legitimacy to an oppressive misogynist, homophobic outfit. It will do nothing to establish a democratic state in Gaza; it will only set a precedent and encourage the likes of Boko Haram and other fundamentalist groups to do the same.
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Which is why Starmer has indicated the UK will recognise it under certain conditions, and Lammy is trying (and failing) to blow air over the embers of a two state solution. Sadly this is too nuanced and doesn't appease the tub thumping back benchers as much as a nice clear "we recognise Palestine" (thereby also recognising it's current leaders).
 
A

AuroraSaab

Shaman
Psamathe said:
Consideration is to recognise "Palestine", not "Gaza".

Ian
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Who is running 'Palestine' at the moment? What are the borders to be recognised, if not Gaza? Recognition should be used as an incentive to move towards democracy. Hamas would be the defacto 'government' of any state recognised as Palestine surely? If you're not recognising a concrete location, just the idea of a state, then it's meaningless and only storing up trouble for later down the line.
 
C R

C R

Guru
AuroraSaab said:
Who is running 'Palestine' at the moment? What are the borders to be recognised, if not Gaza? Recognition should be used as an incentive to move towards democracy. Hamas would be the defacto 'government' of any state recognised as Palestine surely? If you're not recognising a concrete location, just the idea of a state, then it's meaningless and only storing up trouble for later down the line.
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:banghead:
 
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Psamathe

Über Member
AuroraSaab said:
Who is running 'Palestine' at the moment? What are the borders to be recognised, if not Gaza? Recognition should be used as an incentive to move towards democracy. Hamas would be the defacto 'government' of any state recognised as Palestine surely? If you're not recognising a concrete location, just the idea of a state, then it's meaningless and only storing up trouble for later down the line.
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West Bank covers significantly larger geographic area (2200 sq miles vs 140 sq miles) and has a significantly larger population (3m vs 2m) so on balance I'd answer Palestinian Authority.

There are recognised borders.

Ian
 
matticus

matticus

Guru
AuroraSaab said:
Hamas would be the defacto 'government' of any state recognised as Palestine surely? If you're not recognising a concrete location, just the idea of a state, then it's meaningless and only storing up trouble for later down the line.
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Yes, that seems like a very good reason to not recognise the (current) independent Palestine... the problem is, this seems to have become a reason for some to say "we" (meaning The West, I guess) can't do anything to stop Israel killing thousands of civilians (for no good reason, in the long term).

There is no easy quick fix. But I'm pretty sure that no amount of mud-slinging about who is "to blame", or who is the least racist/fascist, or who has the best historical "rights" to the land will save these lives.
 
A

AuroraSaab

Shaman
Psamathe said:
West Bank covers significantly larger geographic area (2200 sq miles vs 140 sq miles) and has a significantly larger population (3m vs 2m) so on balance I'd answer Palestinian Authority.

There are recognised borders.

Ian
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They have no authority in Gaza though so presumably you'd be recognising a state with an outpost run by terrorists. Recognising a Palestinian state will do nothing useful (at the moment) and no amount of hand wringing over what we should have done a hundred years ago will make it so.
 
C R

C R

Guru
AuroraSaab said:
They have no authority in Gaza though so presumably you'd be recognising a state with an outpost run by terrorists. Recognising a Palestinian state will do nothing useful (at the moment) and no amount of hand wringing over what we should have done a hundred years ago will make it so.
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Excuses

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Pblakeney

Pblakeney

Senior Member
AuroraSaab said:
They have no authority in Gaza though so presumably you'd be recognising a state with an outpost run by terrorists. Recognising a Palestinian state will do nothing useful (at the moment) and no amount of hand wringing over what we should have done a hundred years ago will make it so.
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This is true but pretending that we (as a nation) had nothing to do with it is preposterous.
All while selling arms to Israel to be used in a genocide.
 
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Psamathe

Über Member
AuroraSaab said:
They have no authority in Gaza though so presumably you'd be recognising a state with an outpost run by terrorists. Recognising a Palestinian state will do nothing useful (at the moment) and no amount of hand wringing over what we should have done a hundred years ago will make it so.
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Netanyahu has supported Hamas in the past.

Hamas have generally agreed to proposed elections provided they included the Palestinians living in Jerusalem (something Abbas required as well). My understanding is that it was Abbas who cancelled the last lot of elections blaming uncertainty over Jerusalem Palestiniand being allowed to participate (though Hamas maintained they didn't need permission from Israel). Hamas did not want the elections cancelled/postponed.

Not for one moment defending Hamas as an organisation but they are still the democratically elected Government of Gaza and had supported 2021 elections.

nb 75% of UN members already recognise the State of Palestine. UN recognises Palestine as a "Non-member observer state".

Ian
 
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