Oh no!! Brexit not going quite as well as hoped

Not that more evidence is required that Brexit has failed everyday folk,but for the record....

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...g-eat-debate-human?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

Once again, polling stats show the now pretty much overwhelming desire to move closer to Europe and rejoin in some way. The Lib Dems, Greens and SNP realise this, why not Labour?
 
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Adam4868

Legendary Member

the snail

Regular
Not that more evidence is required that Brexit has failed everyday folk,but for the record....

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...g-eat-debate-human?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

Once again, polling stats show the now pretty much overwhelming desire to move closer to Europe and rejoin in some way. The Lib Dems, Greens and SNP realise this, why not Labour?

Labour's policy is very sensible. Rejoining or renegotiating a swiss(or wherever)-style just isn't going to happen, certainly not in the next parliament. Talking about rejoining would simply reopen the arguments to no effect, and would probably be a gift to the tories. IMO the most that can be achieved is to align more closely on trade/standards, which would at least put us in a position where negotiations with the EU are feasible. Quite likely that the tory brexit loons will try to move us as far as possible away from EU as possible, to make any move back as difficult as possible. The next Labour government is going to inherit an appalling mess in terms of finances, EU relationship. Starmer is pretty feeble, but I think it would be a mistake to raise your expectations after a decade of utter lunatic incompetence from the tories
 
Labour's policy is very sensible. Rejoining or renegotiating a swiss(or wherever)-style just isn't going to happen, certainly not in the next parliament. Talking about rejoining would simply reopen the arguments to no effect, and would probably be a gift to the tories. IMO the most that can be achieved is to align more closely on trade/standards, which would at least put us in a position where negotiations with the EU are feasible. Quite likely that the tory brexit loons will try to move us as far as possible away from EU as possible, to make any move back as difficult as possible. The next Labour government is going to inherit an appalling mess in terms of finances, EU relationship. Starmer is pretty feeble, but I think it would be a mistake to raise your expectations after a decade of utter lunatic incompetence from the tories

It's a view I regularly consider.
But Starmer needs clearer water between Labour and thr Tories over Brexit, showing for the shitshow it is, demostrating that the majority of the country realise they've been had, and showing a clear direction of travel for closer ties to Europe.
Without overcoming some of the trade barriers to Europe, nor a freer policy on the movement of people, they're not going to save the downward economical spiral.
My conclusion is he needs to be talking this up and pitching it now as policy should they get a second term.....
 
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Rusty Nails

Upright Member
It's a view I regularly consider.
But Starmer needs clearer water between Labour and thr Tories over Brexit, showing for the shitshow it is, demostrating that the majority of the country realise they've been had, and showing a clear direction of travel for closer ties to Europe.
Without overcoming some of the trade barriers to Europe, nor a freer policy on the movement of people, they're not going to save the downward economical spiral.
My conclusion is he needs to be talking this up and pitching it now as policy should they get a second term.....

AFAICS any stance that involves increasing and improving links with the EU will create clear water between Labour and the Tories, who still seem to see them as the enemy, so Starmer has a lot of scope.

He does need to be more positive.

It would be interesting to see any recent polls about attitudes to Brexit and/or closer ties with the EU specifically in the Red Wall areas to see if there is any buyer's remorse.
 

Unkraut

Master of the Inane Comment
Location
Germany
It would be interesting to see any recent polls about attitudes to Brexit and/or closer ties with the EU specifically in the Red Wall areas to see if there is any buyer's remorse.

To avoid that I think Starmer would have to carefully avoid any suggestion of re-joining. I suspect this would still create a backlash amongst those who believe they 'got their country back' by leaving the EU. It remains a fact that the referendum was lost and I think it too soon to try to reverse this. Any new and better relationship with the EU will need to command a significant majority of the population which would have to include 'moderate' leavers.

If Starmer got this wrong and the Tories managed to cling on to power the needless damage could continue for several more years.
 

Once a Wheeler

New Member
In my opinion, the idea of rejoining the EU is misconceived. It implies that the UK should go back to its status of semi-detached half-member with an accumulation of derogations and exceptions that included absence from the euro zone and absence from the Schengen area. The UK does not need to rejoin, it needs to join: in the Schengen Area, in the euro zone, committed to the development of its own continent, giving every child oral fluency in a second European language by the time they leave primary school. The UK needs to understand that nothing can stop it from being a European country, it is a fact of geography. It needs to join in and work with its own family, despite all its faults and foibles, and not isolate itself in its national bedroom in a gigantic teenage sulk.
 
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mudsticks

mudsticks

Legendary Member
In my opinion, the idea of rejoining the EU is misconceived. It implies that the UK should go back to its status of semi-detached half-member with an accumulation of derogations and exceptions that included absence from the euro zone and absence from the Schengen area. The UK does not need to rejoin, it needs to join: in the Schengen Area, in the euro zone, committed to the development of its own continent, giving every child oral fluency in a second European language by the time they leave primary school. The UK needs to understand that nothing can stop it from being a European country, it is a fact of geography. It needs to join in and work with its own family, despite all its faults and foibles, and not isolate itself in its national bedroom in a gigantic teenage sulk.
Completely agree with the aspirations and sentiment.
But what to do about all those folks who seem to see the EU as some kind of existential threat, despite it being quite the reverse.?

Other countries seem to be able to reconcile the idea of being both (say) unquestionably Spain, but also and at the same time a member of the wider EU family.

Why do / did we apparently find that so difficult.??

Once it's sunk in that 'those meddling eurocrats' weren't the cause of all the woes of this country, but in fact quite a lot of the time they were alleviating some of them..
Wales, parts of the southwest and northeast I'm looking at you - Once that's thoroughly sunk in do you think there's a likelihood of wanting to forge these closer ties again in future.

I don't know, the stranglehold of the populist press over political 'thought' our own self image, and our attitude to other nations is so strong.

So much needs fixing before we could contemplate rejoining.
Even if we were welcomed back.
 

BoldonLad

Old man on a bike. Not a member of a clique.
Location
South Tyneside
In my opinion, the idea of rejoining the EU is misconceived. It implies that the UK should go back to its status of semi-detached half-member with an accumulation of derogations and exceptions that included absence from the euro zone and absence from the Schengen area. The UK does not need to rejoin, it needs to join: in the Schengen Area, in the euro zone, committed to the development of its own continent, giving every child oral fluency in a second European language by the time they leave primary school. The UK needs to understand that nothing can stop it from being a European country, it is a fact of geography. It needs to join in and work with its own family, despite all its faults and foibles, and not isolate itself in its national bedroom in a gigantic teenage sulk.

Agree 100%. Sadly, I can’t see it happening.
 

Once a Wheeler

New Member
Here's some nourishment for the like-minded, there is certainly no need to despair:

50kTurnedOut.JPG

Over 50,000 joiners marched through London on 22 October with the procession stretching from Piccadilly to Parliament Square.
Anything in the newspapers? Virtually nothing. Anything on the main broadcast news? Nothing that I saw. For the media, it has ceased to be a current affair. However, with turnouts such as this the nation is proving otherwise.

And here's a sample placard:

SamplePlacard.jpg
 
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BoldonLad

Old man on a bike. Not a member of a clique.
Location
South Tyneside
Here's some nourishment for the like-minded, there is certainly no need to despair:

View attachment 2608
Over 50,000 joiners marched through London on 22 October with the procession stretching from Piccadilly to Parliament Square.
Anything in the newspapers? Virtually nothing. Anything on the main broadcast news? Nothing that I saw. For the media, it has ceased to be a current affair. However, with turnouts such as this the nation is proving otherwise.

And here's a sample placard:

View attachment 2612

I like your sentiment, but, it does not matter how many individuals are in favour, unless and until we get a Government who wish to join, it will not happen. At present, the only viable alternatives for Government are Labour or Conservative, neither have rejoining as a policy, or, even a desire. It's not going to happen, sadly.
 

the snail

Regular
I like your sentiment, but, it does not matter how many individuals are in favour, unless and until we get a Government who wish to join, it will not happen. At present, the only viable alternatives for Government are Labour or Conservative, neither have rejoining as a policy, or, even a desire. It's not going to happen, sadly.

Not in the near future, but governments change, party leaders change. My guess is that we will hopefully see closer alignment over the next few years once the tories are gone, then in 5-10 years progress to either rejoining, or negotiating a more sensible relationship. But fixing this shitshow is not going to be easy or quick.
 
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