Oh no!! Brexit not going quite as well as hoped

[Deleted member 49]

It's dead though.

Your not wrong there....

 

[stowie]

Do you honestly think if he plays along...keeps quiet until the election then tells us his plans that's the strategy?
Are his current gains the result of him winning people over or when Johnson gets the boot will they flock back?
No vision,no principles and this is all with the media on his side,wait till they turn on him.
Your saying power at any cost.. no thanks.

There is no strategy available for Brexit. The core framework is in place. There are options to tinker with it - for example greater engagement with schemes such Erasmus and so on. But any manifesto / policy announcements would give Johnson a chance to be squealing about "Brexit Betrayal" if it looked like Labour were giving more oversight to EU institutions such as ECJ.

I just don't think having detailed strategies about Brexit are going to help Labour in the next election. A direction of travel - for example saying they will be able to negotiate closer ties with the EU because they aren't Johnson is about the best we can expect - not least because the appetite for the EU to revisit the existing agreements is largely unknown until they are in government.

Power at any cost....

I consider Johnson and his government an existential threat to the UK, especially to its institutions which are on a far weaker constitutional footing than - for example - in the US. I wouldn't have said that about the May, Cameron, Brown, Blair, or Major governments. I don't think it was even really true of the Thatcher government. None of these were corrupt. I consider Johnson's government corrupt from the top down.

So I am prepared to compromise to get the Conservatives out of power. I voted Labour at the last election despite big misgivings about Corbyn for similar reasons. The writing was on the wall back in 2019 what a Johnson government would be like.

 

[Rusty Nails]

Your right there Claud,it's going to take a hell of a shift for me to vote for him.For my own selfish reasons I find him hard to tolerate over his treatment of Corbyn and the left of the party.I could feel almost guilty as a Labour supporter...except I asked my partner the other day and her words were "you asked me last time to vote for Corbyn,(which she did)don't ask me to vote for that fecking weasel" she's less forgiving of British politics than even me !
But more than that I really don't see any vision from him,I see more of the same.Is it really good enough to 'just not be the Tories' ?
The whole Blair should be knighted drives me fecking nuts !
I'm way past the Brexit argument,it was allways more important to me to have some hope in goverment...what a feck up that turned out to be !
I'll wait and see..I won't hold my breath though.

That's like voting for the "cutting off my nose to spite my face" party.

 

[Milkfloat]

@theclaud is correct in stating that if @Adam4868 cannot be convinced to vote Labour then the party has a huge problem. Even if he and others like him hate everything Starmer does in order to prevent a Tory win he needs to hold his nose and vote. It is all well and good moaning about the party not representing him, bitching about the two party system we have and everything else bad about the situation, but like it or not, when you vote, you vote for the least worst option in your constituency that has a strong chance of winning. The last GE I did not fancy giving the Torys or Labour my vote, but I was first in line at the polling booth to put a X against my Labour candidate. For the next GE Labour's slogan should be something like 'we are your only option'.

 

[Deleted member 49]

@theclaud is correct in stating that if @Adam4868 cannot be convinced to vote Labour then the party has a huge problem. Even if he and others like him hate everything Starmer does in order to prevent a Tory win he needs to hold his nose and vote. It is all well and good moaning about the party not representing him, bitching about the two party system we have and everything else bad about the situation, but like it or not, when you vote, you vote for the least worst option in your constituency that has a strong chance of winning. The last GE I did not fancy giving the Torys or Labour my vote, but I was first in line at the polling booth to put a X against my Labour candidate. For the next GE Labour's slogan should be something like 'we are your only option'.

Don't try and lecture me on who i should vote for !
After the last election with people wanting others to vote tactically to avoid the Brexit they didn't want we've ended up where we are.
I've given my vote to labour since I was 18,every one of them except Blair ! That makes me feel marginally better.
I'll make my decision at the time,but like I say at the current moment I'd think twice,I doubt very much I'll vote for Starmer.

 

[Milkfloat]

Don't try and lecture me on who i should vote for !
After the last election with people wanting others to vote tactically to avoid the Brexit they didn't want we've ended up where we are.
I've given my vote to labour since I was 18,every one of them except Blair ! That makes me feel marginally better.
I'll make my decision at the time,but like I say at the current moment I'd think twice,I doubt very much I'll vote for Starmer.

There is no lecture at all - simply pointing out if you want to prevent a Tory win that is likely your best option. Feel free to enable a Tory win if you want to, if you hate Starmer that much then go for it.

 

[Deleted member 49]

There is no strategy available for Brexit. The core framework is in place. There are options to tinker with it - for example greater engagement with schemes such Erasmus and so on. But any manifesto / policy announcements would give Johnson a chance to be squealing about "Brexit Betrayal" if it looked like Labour were giving more oversight to EU institutions such as ECJ.

I'm not only talking about Brexit though...where is he on anything ?

I consider Johnson and his government an existential threat to the UK, especially to its institutions which are on a far weaker constitutional footing than - for example - in the US. I wouldn't have said that about the May, Cameron, Brown, Blair, or Major governments. I don't think it was even really true of the Thatcher government. None of these were corrupt. I consider Johnson's government corrupt from the top down.

Cant disagree with you more...Thatcher did untold damage to this country.If I say any more what I think of her it might be offensive.
Blair lol...you really need me to say what I think ?
Do I think this current goverment is a shitshow of lies and corruption...of course and I've allways said so.
But where have you been in the years of Tory/Lib dem Austerity ? Most of the current problems NHS,Police etc arent due to Covid or Brexit exclusively.There due to underfunding and austerity/cuts inflicted on us.

So I am prepared to compromise to get the Conservatives out of power. I voted Labour at the last election despite big misgivings about Corbyn for similar reasons. The writing was on the wall back in 2019 what a Johnson government would be like.

Agree now if only everyone else would of thought like that 🙄

 

[Deleted member 49]

There is no lecture at all - simply pointing out if you want to prevent a Tory win that is likely your best option. Feel free to enable a Tory win if you want to, if you hate Starmer that much then go for it.

Thanks appreciated.Now if only everyone had took your advice last time round.

 

[farfromtheland]

...Power at any cost....

I consider Johnson and his government an existential threat to the UK, especially to its institutions which are on a far weaker constitutional footing than - for example - in the US. I wouldn't have said that about the May, Cameron, Brown, Blair, or Major governments. I don't think it was even really true of the Thatcher government. None of these were corrupt. I consider Johnson's government corrupt from the top down.

So I am prepared to compromise to get the Conservatives out of power. I voted Labour at the last election despite big misgivings about Corbyn for similar reasons. The writing was on the wall back in 2019 what a Johnson government would be like.

You don't feel Blair was corrupt?

He won a huge majority and used it against socialist ideals.

He undermined the political neutrality of the civil service and brought unelected cronies to power.

I also think he was a mogul of this culture of not talking about the difficult stuff in public. As far as I can see carrying on that way is a brand of populism not much different from Boris' Tory brand. We would get a useless Labour government, the Tories would regroup, and we'd then get another probably harder Tory regime - harder because ideologically we'd have given them the upper hand.


With the global environmental crisis isn't it time for some idealism or even just a different kind of pragmatism? Every policy should be scrutinised by as many of the as best informed public as can be roused to. This is more vital than anything, including saving us from this Tory government. Nothing should be hidden. The more compromises one side makes with honesty the more the other.

I am fed up with people supposedly more politically realistic than me underestimating the intelligence of 'other' voters. Given that around 40% don't vote for anyone, ask yourself why? Is it lack of energy or lack of faith?

Loads of people joined Labour because Corbyn was trying to do something better. Now they have gone off, because of 'softer' manipulators. The corruption of the Labour party is a bigger problem than the Tories - it leaves us with no principled option.

 

[farfromtheland]

I also experienced much nuanced debate in pubs, union meetings and on the streets with my neighbours during the Brexit campaigns. Not the polarised 'racist or not racist' presentation given by some. It was a start. It raised consciousness.

 

[Fab Foodie]

The race to the bottom continues...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59903232

Patriotism has a price it seems, and it's pretty cheap....

 

[Fab Foodie]

That's like voting for the "cutting off my nose to spite my face" party.

Sadly that seems to be Adam's MO.

 

[winjim]

Just at the moment, my answer is, yes it is. Our country hangs on a perilously thin thread between abandoning democracy for a version of fascism. Keeping Johnson (or more frighteningly, his more competent fellow travellers) out is, in my view, worth voting for Labour.

Or, more succinctly:

We're not about to usher in a new era of socialist utopia. It's Tories or notTories.

 

[BoldonLad]

We're not about to usher in a new era of socialist utopia. It's Tories or notTories.

Shouldn’t that read “Tories or Almost-Tories”?

 

[Fab Foodie]

We're not about to usher in a new era of socialist utopia. It's Tories or notTories.

It's this. And Labour may need to work with other parties to get a Not Tories result.