Privatisation and nationalisation

[newfhouse]

No one starts with a deep seated principle, they are indoctrinated into it.

How do the indoctrinators’ principles arise? Is it turtles all the way down?

 

[Unkraut]

I shudder to think about going back to the Post Office / British Telecom days. I just don’t see how nationalisation the way we used to do things would work. I would prefer to see more of a social, non profit making bent on private companies.

I suppose it does depend upon what you remember of them if you are prepared to give away your vintage.

The theory might have been good but the practice wasn't. The 'them and us' conflict between management and workforce wasn't ended when so many industries were nationalised in the late 40's. Poor industrial relations continued. 'Saving money' led to Aberfan.

British Rail was hardly efficiently run, but then if a loss-making industry knows the taxpayer can be relied upon to bail it out why should it seek to be efficient? A friend of mine who works as a driver for a train company told me you could always tell the old British Rail drivers - if a train was late in they would take their 15 minute break come what may and let the service run late, the passengers had to wait.

Another friend who worked for a water company just after privatisation again said the existing staff were sleepy - the atmosphere of chunks of local government.

Was there really any good reason to keep exhausted coal pits open?

There might be good reasons for nationalising a couple of industries, but they seem to function better when managed privately, and perhaps an increased level of social in a social market economy would be better than public ownership.

The ultimate failure of the state running everything was the old Communist block, and I can't see why anyone would ever want that back. The levels of pollution, for example, beggared belief, unemployment was disguised by employing redundant workers, and there was little scope for innovation and enterprise. Its collapse was sooner or later inevitable.

I think Labour are right to be wary of nationalisation as some sort of vote winner, its track record whilst not being total failure isn't good.

 

[swansonj]

How about the big six energy companies made more than a billion in profits before this latest price hikes and it's only going to get worse.
We might have been well on our way to a lot of this had we voted for Labour at the last election....no I won't shut up about Corbyn ! Saying that Labour under Starmer don't look like there prepared to say where they are on this.
I prefer the term public ownership....but yes I'm all for it !

Do you object to the principle of anyone making a profit out of supplying an essential public service, or is the primary objection to the size of the profit?

 

[Deleted member 49]

Do you object to the principle of anyone making a profit out of supplying an essential public service, or is the primary objection to the size of the profit?

Well to start with the energy firms who've made billions in profit,paid their CEOs over 7 million and handed over billions,I think I read 40 to shareholders.Not forgetting how much they had in state subsidies.
To then hammer us with energy bills going through the roof !
Yes I've a problem with certain profits 🙄

 

[Deleted member 49]

Don't know about anybody else but I never feel like anything goes back down.
Fuel,food,petrol/diesel etc you get the picture.Were told there's a chance they'll go down or they'll pass some savings on but never does !
Are we really buying a 200 LOAN is going to make much difference to anyone?
Rant over better do some work ☹️

 

[BoldonLad]

What problem would that fix?

Farming doesn’t seem to me to be an activity that fits well into a nationally coordinated structure. Maybe a better idea would be to help farms become diverse and able to serve their local economy. @mudsticks will be able to say whether smaller enterprises can be scaled sufficiently to feed us all. Is there scope to exert a bit more control over the distribution and retail chain?

Well, similar to enterprises like transport and energy, I would have thought Farming and food production were essential activities which should be "for the good of society"? As for the bolded part, surely a "National Farming Service" as a single entity would be in a position to "fight it's corner" more successfully that a collection of individual enterprises, where divide and conquer can be a technique employed to good effect.

 

[BoldonLad]

I shudder to think about going back to the Post Office / British Telecom days. I just don’t see how nationalisation the way we used to do things would work. I would prefer to see more of a social, non profit making bent on private companies.

Agreed. No desire to see a return of NEEB (North East Electricity Board), Northern Gas, British Rail, etc.

 

[BoldonLad]

Well to start with the energy firms who've made billions in profit,paid their CEOs over 7 million and handed over billions,I think I read 40 to shareholders.Not forgetting how much they had in state subsidies.
To then hammer us with energy bills going through the roof !
Yes I've a problem with certain profits 🙄

Which "Energy Firms" are you referring to? The £7 Million to CEOs is difficult to comment on, unless we know which and how many CEOs.

In the "olden days" when we had Nationalised Coal, Gas and Electricity, didn't we just have different pigs with their nose in the trough?

 

[newfhouse]

Well, similar to enterprises like transport and energy, I would have thought Farming and food production were essential activities which should be "for the good of society"? As for the bolded part, surely a "National Farming Service" as a single entity would be in a position to "fight it's corner" more successfully that a collection of individual enterprises, where divide and conquer can be a technique employed to good effect.

Are you actually calling for a Soviet style command economy with bureaucrats deciding how many tractors or turnips are produced, or are you making a rhetorical point?

 

[Deleted member 49]

Which "Energy Firms" are you referring to? The £7 Million to CEOs is difficult to comment on, unless we know which and how many CEOs.

In the "olden days" when we had Nationalised Coal, Gas and Electricity, didn't we just have different pigs with their nose in the trough?

Shall we start with Shell who made so much profit there handing back 6 billion to shareholder's...
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...van-beurden-europe-china-russia-b2006625.html
Maybe France has the right idea.
The French government will force EDF, the state energy giant, to take an €8.4bn (£7bn) financial hit to protect households from rocketing energy costs by limiting bill hikes to 4% this year.
Or Spain.
MADRID, Sept 13 (Reuters) - Spain will cap gas prices, cut taxes and redirect energy company profits as part of a package to bring down soaring electricity prices, Prime Minister Pedro Sanchez said in an interview on Monday.

Sanchez told state broadcaster TVEit was unacceptable that energy companies were profiting from elevated market prices for electricity.

 

[BoldonLad]

Shall we start with Shell who made so much profit there handing back 6 billion to shareholder's...
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...van-beurden-europe-china-russia-b2006625.html
Maybe France has the right idea.
The French government will force EDF, the state energy giant, to take an €8.4bn (£7bn) financial hit to protect households from rocketing energy costs by limiting bill hikes to 4% this year.
Or Spain.
MADRID, Sept 13 (Reuters) - Spain will cap gas prices, cut taxes and redirect energy company profits as part of a package to bring down soaring electricity prices, Prime Minister Pedro Sanchez said in an interview on Monday.

Sanchez told state broadcaster TVEit was unacceptable that energy companies were profiting from elevated market prices for electricity.

Shell is a massive international Company. So, yes, the numbers look huge, but, relative to the size of the Company, they are not quite as amazing as you seem to think.

The figure are for year ending 2021, and profit comparisons are with 2020, a very depressed year due to, what was it again, oh yes, Covid. In other threads, any attempt to say the UK economy was doing well were met with hoots of derision, pointing out that the comparison was not valid, since the economy had been depressed by the Pandemic. A little consistency, please.

It is true, Dividends to share holders (which may well include your pension provider) are to increase, but, only by 4%. The present dividend rate is a little over 3%, so, a 4% of 3% increase is not going to make the Dividend rate particularly high.

Since I am a Shell Shareholder, I hope I am wrong in the above, and that the share price and the Dividend does increase by astronomical amounts, as you suggest.

EDF a (French) State energy Company, is a major Energy Provider in the UK. Perhaps, we could learn a few lessons, I do not recall any of our Nationalised Industries actually making profits, either at home or abroad. Regardless of which Party was in power.

Madrid. Very nice, but, if we are to take money off a company when the market goes their way, are we to give them money when the market goes against them?.

 

[BoldonLad]

Are you actually calling for a Soviet style command economy with bureaucrats deciding how many tractors or turnips are produced, or are you making a rhetorical point?

Does a Nationalised Industry have to be a Soviet Style Command Economy?

If yes, why should that work any better for (say) Electricity production than for Turnips?

If no, why cannot the production of turnips be Nationalised and operated as per the dreamt of Nationalised Energy producers or Railways?

To be clear, I am not a fan of Nationalisation. Most of the Forum is taken up with discussion of how useless our politicians are, and, we want to allow them to run our Industries too/ Doesn't sound sensible to me.

 

[newfhouse]

Does a Nationalised Industry have to be a Soviet Style Command Economy?

No. There should be appropriate structures and it seems to me that rail transport and farming are sufficiently different to warrant different arrangements.

I’m not against profit in business - I have owned and run my own. I think there is a difference between a vital utility being run for the benefit of the population versus for the benefit of the shareholders. Take the water industry as an example. Can you shop around for your water or sewage provider? Light touch regulation clearly doesn’t stop money being siphoned (sorry) away to foreign owners. Even if being state owned made no positive difference to the quality of service (a different debate) all profits would be available to the exchequer or reman in the business to invest in long term improvements.

 

[Deleted member 49]

Shell is a massive international Company. So, yes, the numbers look huge, but, relative to the size of the Company, they are not quite as amazing as you seem to think.

Your right there I don't think there amazing....in fact I was reading that in
2020 Shell didnt pay any tax in the UK, the only country in which it operates where it didn’t, Shell picked up nearly £100m from taxpayers in rebates.I don't hear Rishi calling for any windfall taxes though... Any info as a shareholder 🙄

 

[BoldonLad]

Your right there I don't think there amazing....in fact I was reading that in
2020 Shell didnt pay any tax in the UK, the only country in which it operates where it didn’t, Shell picked up nearly £100m from taxpayers in rebates.I don't hear Rishi calling for any windfall taxes though... Any info as a shareholder 🙄

Companies avoiding taxes, through loopholes, has been going on for the whole of my adult life, regardless of party in power. Perhaps, we need to hire someone to write our tax laws more effectively?

Who knows, you may be an (indirect) shareholder too, if you are a member of a Pension Scheme.