Reform, and the death of the Tory Party

[BoldonLad]

You say that, but this he's spot on here:

“Outside a bubble of politicians, journalists and construction industry lobbyists, the voters of the north do not want, and never have wanted, a handful of high-speed rail lines, serving a handful of big cities … They want the money to be spent on the often failing railways (and roads) that they actually use.”

Shaving a few minutes off the half hour it takes to get from Liverpool to Manchester is meaningless, it's the onward journeys that are the issue.

Of course, this wouldn't be a problem if the North had actually seen proper investment in infrastructure over the years, rather than being ignored and left to crumble.

You, like me, live in "the North", we were never going to get any advantage from HS2, the nearest it was ever planned to come was 100 miles South of here, even that has now been watered down.

To most people, "North of Watford" is not "the North" 😊

 

[AndyRM]

You, like me, live in "the North", we were never going to get any advantage from HS2, the nearest it was ever planned to come was 100 miles South of here, even that has now been watered down.

To most people, "North of Watford" is not "the North" 😊

Geographically I don't even consider Manchester or Liverpool properly "North", and when you take the whole of the UK into account, neither is Newcastle, but that's a whole different thread.

 

[First Aspect]

Paging Mr Chasey...

He's Dutch, so he would get it wrong. Or as a USA fanboy just define it financially.

"Class" as a British concept is very hard to pin down, being a mixture of family heritage, where you went to school (not what you did or how well you did), mannerisms, dress code and social behaviours.

In a sense "class", whether working, middle or upper, is like pornography. It is hard to define, but you know it when you see it.

 

[Ian H]

unless that was amended to read "those who work or worked by hand or by brain" wouldn't that mean Pensioners could not be "working class"?

One of several reasons why the term "working class" irks me is, one of my long term drinking pals held a very senior management role (working by brain?) but, not senior enough to be "top dog".

He thinks he is a Socialist, and, could not understand that to most of the others in the group considered him to be "one of them", and, not "one of us".

Socio-economic status is not necessarily related to political beliefs.

 

[Shortfall]

That's the sort of thinking that leads to this:

Yeah I saw that on the cartoon thread but it's not a fair comparison. Airline pilots are usually already competent fliers with thousands of hours of experience under their belts before they get in the cockpit of a jet. They then do lots more training and work in an industry renowned for its unmatched safety record and a reputation for excellence. Politics on the other hand.............A better cartoon would depict a captain with repeated crashes and near misses to his name who would be mobbed by volunteers desperate to get hold of the joystick because the pilot had already proven himself completely incompetent and unfit for the job. Yes the plane might crash if a volunteer took the reins but it was going to do so anyway.

 

[Shortfall]

Incidentally, I don't advocate for Farage, Trump and their like, I say to the supposed mainstream parties, sort your fücking selves out and deliver more of what voters want rather than repeatedly failing them, lying to them and feathering your own nests because it you don't, Trump and Farage are what you get.

 

[BoldonLad]

Socio-economic status is not necessarily related to political beliefs.

Don't think I said it was

 

[Stevo 666]

Geographically I don't even consider Manchester or Liverpool properly "North", and when you take the whole of the UK into account, neither is Newcastle, but that's a whole different thread.

Different thread I think - not sure there's much to be gained to get into a '4 Yorkshiremen' type argument about who is really from the North, or at least more Northern than others 🙂

 

[Rusty Nails]

unless that was amended to read "those who work or worked by hand or by brain" wouldn't that mean Pensioners could not be "working class"?

One of several reasons why the term "working class" irks me is, one of my long term drinking pals held a very senior management role (working by brain?) but, not senior enough to be "top dog".

He thinks he is a Socialist, and, could not understand that to most of the others in the group considered him to be "one of them", and, not "one of us".

I thought you were 'not a member of a clique' and didn't like socio-economic classifications, or at least the 'working class' one? Is 'being one of us' not a clique?

I assume you are not saying that anyone in or retired from a senior management role cannot be a socialist.

Like it or not just about everyone is in a clique(s) of some sort, whether consciously or sub-consciously.

 

[Stevo 666]

He thinks he is a Socialist

Tell him to stop talking himself down.

 

[Pross]

Tell him to stop talking himself down.

That was actually quite good for you

 

[BoldonLad]

I thought you were 'not a member of a clique' and didn't like socio-economic classifications, or at least the 'working class' one? Is 'being one of us' not a clique?

I assume you are not saying that anyone in or retired from a senior management role cannot be a socialist.

Like it or not just about everyone is in a clique(s) of some sort, whether consciously or sub-consciously.

I didn't say I was "one of us".

I didn't say I didn't like socio-economic classifications

I am not saying who can or cannot be a "Socialist". It so happens the higher tax rate paying retiree, in question, is more of a Reform supporter than a Socialist, based on his views on small rubber boats, and their passengers.

I said that, IMHO, the term "working class" was ill-defined, although I didn't mention "middle class", I think that is also ill-defined, and, both terms mean very different things to different people.

I notice "working class" is now generally replaced by "working people" in Politician speak. "Working people" conveniently or otherwise excludes the unemployed, "economically inactive", retired, and no doubt other groups.

 

[Rusty Nails]

I didn't say I was "one of us".

I didn't say I didn't like socio-economic classifications

I am not saying who can or cannot be a "Socialist". It so happens the higher tax rate paying retiree, in question, is more of a Reform supporter than a Socialist, based on his views on small rubber boats, and their passengers.

I said that, IMHO, the term "working class" was ill-defined, although I didn't mention "middle class", I think that is also ill-defined, and, both terms mean very different things to different people.

I notice "working class" is now generally replaced by "working people" in Politician speak. "Working people" conveniently or otherwise excludes the unemployed, "economically inactive", retired, and no doubt other groups.

My apologies. I must have completely missed the point(s) you were actually trying to make. I must try harder in future.

 

[Xipe Totec]

When reading this forum, I am regularly amused at the apparent assumption that even a significant minority of the electorate have any interest or knowledge of politics.

This lack of knowledge/interest can be seen in any TV quiz show where "Political" questions invariably defeat contestants.

A couple of days ago, during the height of the "Angela Rayner saga", daughter No 2 (a maths teacher, second in department, age 52, so, one would assume, hardly a "knuckle dragger"), asked me "which party is this Rayner woman with?", subsequent conversation revealed that she was only vaguely aware of who Kier Starmer is 😂

That doesn't surprise me in the slightest. Someone once said that for most people politics was "what's on in the background while they make a cup of tea" - and nothing more. I think the curse of the politically engaged is to assume everyone understands what they do & shares similar motivations for their voting choices - and nothing's further from the truth.

People wouldn't be so easily gaslit & persuaded to vote against their own interests if it was true.

 

[Stevo 666]

That was actually quite good for you

Blimey, a compliment