Reform, and the death of the Tory Party

[BoldonLad]

To be fair, 18 year olds are easily led.

Is that a case for raising the voting age?

 

[Bazzer]

Is that a case for raising the voting age?

But they are considered old enough to be on the frontline for the British army and to be considered as adults for justice purposes.

 

[Pblakeney]

Is that a case for raising the voting age?

I believe I've heard the phrase "No taxation without representation" from somewhere. 😉

 

[CXRAndy]

Funny now that there seems to be a rather large group who support reform in the younger age group, lowering the voting age isn't that appealing

 

[briantrumpet]

Just how bad could it get for what's left of the Tory Party?

Well, not yet bad enough, it seems.

 

[BoldonLad]

But they are considered old enough to be on the frontline for the British army and to be considered as adults for justice purposes.

I believe I've heard the phrase "No taxation without representation" from somewhere. 😉

I wasn't advocating raising the voting age, merely suggesting that "being easily led" (as suggested by the OP) was perhaps at odds with the right to vote.

 

[Psamathe]

I started wondering, how much of the rise of Reform is actually due to the failure of the Conservatives. Were the Conservatives to get their act together might Reform suddenly fade?

(I'm no Conservative voter/supporter but) Conservatives do have experience of Government, pre-Johnson did manage to hold things together for the benefit of their supporters, etc. whereas Reform make noise but no experience and a lot of questions about viability of whatever policy they dreamt up today. I wonder if many of those switching Conservative→Reform might still feel happier voting a sane Conservative Party (which isn't currently on offer and wasn't at last General Election).

That said, Conservatives don't seem very motivated to restore any sort of sanity.

Ian

 

[Pblakeney]

I started wondering, how much of the rise of Reform is actually due to the failure of the Conservatives. Were the Conservatives to get their act together might Reform suddenly fade?

(I'm no Conservative voter/supporter but) Conservatives do have experience of Government, pre-Johnson did manage to hold things together for the benefit of their supporters, etc. whereas Reform make noise but no experience and a lot of questions about viability of whatever policy they dreamt up today. I wonder if many of those switching Conservative→Reform might still feel happier voting a sane Conservative Party (which isn't currently on offer and wasn't at last General Election).

That said, Conservatives don't seem very motivated to restore any sort of sanity.

Ian

What we are seeing here is what David Cameron was trying to avoid by having the referendum, the Conservative Party splitting up.
Evidently he ultimately failed. It just took a bit longer.

 

[Psamathe]

What we are seeing here is what David Cameron was trying to avoid by having the referendum, the Conservative Party splitting up.
Evidently he ultimately failed. It just took a bit longer.

I sometimes wonder if a significant part of the problems (maybe all) political parties face these days is that whilst they love "we are a broad church" their leadership now hates descent and those below are considered as lobby fodder, do as you're told as the Party is just a reflection of the Leader's ideology.

To me different and opposing views within a party are a great strength not a negative.

But these days with leadership taking greater powers, they don't like minions disagreeing and failing to embrace and consider different views those not singing leaders ideology are threatened, whip withdrawn, even "it's become a no-confidence vote" (despite being unrelated). Endless refusal to embrace differing views and bullying just creates the split.

Ian

 

[CXRAndy]

I started wondering, how much of the rise of Reform is actually due to the failure of the Conservatives. Were the Conservatives to get their act together might Reform suddenly fade?

(I'm no Conservative voter/supporter but) Conservatives do have experience of Government, pre-Johnson did manage to hold things together for the benefit of their supporters, etc. whereas Reform make noise but no experience and a lot of questions about viability of whatever policy they dreamt up today. I wonder if many of those switching Conservative→Reform might still feel happier voting a sane Conservative Party (which isn't currently on offer and wasn't at last General Election).

That said, Conservatives don't seem very motivated to restore any sort of sanity.

Ian

Reform is the voter base of the Conservative Party. The voters no longer trust, believe in them, switched side to reform

 

[Pross]

What we are seeing here is what David Cameron was trying to avoid by having the referendum, the Conservative Party splitting up.
Evidently he ultimately failed. It just took a bit longer.

Not sure about it taking longer. If he hadn’t gone down that road they may have lost a few right-wingers to UKIP and maybe a handful of seats but would have ended up with a more stable, centre-right Party. As it is all the centrists got forced out or decided they wanted no part of it and we ended up with the farcical mess they become post 2016.

 

[Pblakeney]

Not sure about it taking longer. If he hadn’t gone down that road they may have lost a few right-wingers to UKIP and maybe a handful of seats but would have ended up with a more stable, centre-right Party. As it is all the centrists got forced out or decided they wanted no part of it and we ended up with the farcical mess they become post 2016.

You are making the assumption that it was only a few. Current status would indicate that the numbers were high enough as to be terminal.
The number was high enough to panic Dave into the referendum instead of losing seats, and the election. Things got so bad that he bailed.

 

[Pross]

You are making the assumption that it was only a few. Current status would indicate that the numbers were high enough as to be terminal.
The number was high enough to panic Dave into the referendum instead of losing seats, and the election. Things got so bad that he bailed.

I think at that point there weren’t that many prepared to risk their safe seat at least. A lot of the loons came in after May called her election and more so in 2019 with the longer serving ones also becoming emboldened

 

[Pblakeney]

I think at that point there weren’t that many prepared to risk their safe seat at least. A lot of the loons came in after May called her election and more so in 2019 with the longer serving ones also becoming emboldened

In which case, why did Dave panic?

 

[Pross]

In which case, why did Dave panic?

Who knows? They lost a few local elections etc. to UKIP who were polling highly so probably for much the same reason Starmer started making right-wing comments after the recent elections. Say what you like about Farage but he is good at panicking the major Parties and pushing the narrative of UK politics