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[Bromptonaut]

A level playing field & fair are different concepts.

You've semantically lost me. A level playing field is a metaphor for fairness.

 

[qigong chimp]

Might spen be confusing the entropic heat death of the universe with the idea of a non-racist Yorkshire County Cricket Club?

 

[cookiemonster]

In keeping with this thread, you should be insisting people attend in person at your address at prescribed hours to see what you have 🤣🤣🤣

Erm.. You do know I'm in Asia.

 

[theclaud]

Also Margaret Thatcher never said there was no such thing as society

"... they are casting their problems on society and who is society? There is no such thing! There are individual men and women and there are families"

I've helpfully bolded the bit where she says exactly that.

 

[theclaud]

A level playing field & fair are different concepts.

Something can be fair without it being a level playing field

Not really. As Bromptonaut already explained, one is a metaphor for the other. There's nothing obliging you to be in favour of fairness. Acknowledging that you are not saves people wasting a lot of energy on arguments grounded in the belief that you perhaps don't see why something is unfair.

 

[matticus]

The French are leading the way. Amazon has it uses but it's killing small, independent bookshops.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...s-france-moves-to-protect-sellers-from-amazon

This is fantastic but I don't see the Gov doing anything like it.

I recommend folks read the link (sorry it's in the Guardian). It's not asking consumers to buy books at a higher price:
It's about legislation to protect a resource with cultural value. In this case, books.
(And the method used does change the playing field ! )

 

[Rusty Nails]

You've semantically lost me. A level playing field is a metaphor for fairness.

^^^^^
Especially in the context of internet vs bricks-n-mortar bookshops.
Fairness or a level playing field does not mean equality of ability or everyone being exactly the same, but everyone having fair access or a fair opportunity to enter the market without being shackled by unfair tax/rate disadvantages or anti-competition practices by existing behemoths.

 

[swansonj]

A level playing field & fair are different concepts.

Something can be fair without it being a level playing field

Not really. As Bromptonaut already explained, one is a metaphor for the other. There's nothing obliging you to be in favour of fairness. Acknowledging that you are not saves people wasting a lot of energy on arguments grounded in the belief that you perhaps don't see why something is unfair.

^^^^^
Especially in the context of internet vs bricks-n-mortar bookshops.
Fairness or a level playing field does not mean equality of ability or everyone being exactly the same, but everyone having fair access or a fair opportunity to enter the market without being shackled by unfair tax/rate disadvantages or anti-competition practices by existing behemoths.

Catching up on the last few pages in one sitting, it's pretty clear that Spen is talking about fairness at a different level - perhaps equality of opportunity for each individual to take advantage of whatever opportunities the extant system of taxes, regulations, etc, offers, or perhaps something else, but I'd lay long odds he has an understanding of those terms in his mind under which the things he says make sense.

It's also pretty clear that if Spen had opted to explain what he meant, the confusion and argument of the last few pages could have been largely avoided. Which prompts the question, Spen, why have you not opted to explain what you understand by "fair" and "level playing field"? It's almost as if you quite enjoy discord and confusion and prefer it over developing a shared understanding.....

 

[spen666]

Catching up on the last few pages in one sitting, it's pretty clear that Spen is talking about fairness at a different level - perhaps equality of opportunity for each individual to take advantage of whatever opportunities the extant system of taxes, regulations, etc, offers, or perhaps something else, but I'd lay long odds he has an understanding of those terms in his mind under which the things he says make sense.

It's also pretty clear that if Spen had opted to explain what he meant, the confusion and argument of the last few pages could have been largely avoided. Which prompts the question, Spen, why have you not opted to explain what you understand by "fair" and "level playing field"? It's almost as if you quite enjoy discord and confusion and prefer it over developing a shared understanding.....

Why?

Because they are all attempts to avoid my main point that High Street retailers need to provide the service that customers want if they are to survive. It is not for customers to adapt to the High St retailers when they can get the service they want from another source

 

[mudsticks]

^^^^^
Especially in the context of internet vs bricks-n-mortar bookshops.
Fairness or a level playing field does not mean equality of ability or everyone being exactly the same, but everyone having fair access or a fair opportunity to enter the market without being shackled by unfair tax/rate disadvantages or anti-competition practices by existing behemoths.

If you do only a tiny amount of online searching you can often (but not always) get the same thing for not much more, or even less, than from the parasitic behemouth..

Even if it's not in a 'local shop'

Why?

Because they are all attempts to avoid my main point that High Street retailers need to provide the service that customers want if they are to survive. It is not for customers to adapt to the High St retailers when they can get the service they want from another source

You don't think that it's unfair that that 'other source' has a massive advantage through avoiding taxes, disregarding employee welfare, and leveraging it's disproportionate buying power to suppress competition??

If high street retailers could avoid paying tax, and have a constant source of poorly treated workers, 24 /7 and get to choose what they pay suppliers, then yes they could probably compete.

That would be a classic race to the bottom, leaving everyone, except a favoured few worse off ultimately.

That does seems to be the kind of society that some people want, or are at least prepared to accept in order to get cheap as chips goods delivered tomorrow.


It's heartening to see that not everyone thinks that way though

 

[swansonj]

Spen. Please could you explain, for my benefit if no-one else's, what is the distinction in the way you use the terms between "fair" and "a level playing field". Thank you.

 

[theclaud]

When Amazon built its 800,000 sq ft warehouse on the Swansea county boundary, Welsh Gov and WEFO spent nearly 5M on a new road purely to service the site. The last independent bookseller in the city centre, meanwhile, couldn't even get the council to agree to the occasional pitch for his Mobile-Home sized Book Bus anywhere in town.

 

[Bromptonaut]

When Amazon built its 800,000 sq ft warehouse on the Swansea county boundary, Welsh Gov and WEFO spent nearly 5M on a new road purely to service the site. The last independent bookseller in the city centre, meanwhile, couldn't even get the council to agree to the occasional pitch for his Mobile-Home sized Book Bus anywhere in town.

And that is a Prime (see what I did there?) example of why the playing field is currently anything but level.

 

[theclaud]

I'd lay long odds he has an understanding of those terms in his mind under which the things he says make sense.

To be fair, the same could apply to the guy who waylaid me at yesterday's Swansea COP demo to bang on about the 'Global Depopulation Agenda', or the dude who barged in when we were trying to lock up on Friday to explain at 250 words per minute why he was a genius.

 

[BoldonLad]

When Amazon built its 800,000 sq ft warehouse on the Swansea county boundary, Welsh Gov and WEFO spent nearly 5M on a new road purely to service the site. The last independent bookseller in the city centre, meanwhile, couldn't even get the council to agree to the occasional pitch for his Mobile-Home sized Book Bus anywhere in town.

I am not familiar with the Swansea "Fulfilment Centre", but, similar a Amazon development has been built near where I live. Existing roads have been improved, no doubt at great cost. However, other business units have also been set up, on the same site. Plus, judging by the number of people I see arriving/departing by bus and car, as I cycle past, it does employ slightly more people than any local book shop.