Starmer's vision quest

[multitool]

It's not racist to say there are cultural factors involved. Nor is it racist to say there were institutional failings due to worries about multicultural issues.

It's racist to be racist. You've been caught out.

To say these things can never be examined is to abandon safeguarding whenever difficult factors are involved. You wouldn't suggest we shouldn't investigate abuse in the Church because it's prejudice against Catholics to see if religious attitudes were a contributory factor, or deem it racist to look at cultural factors in other issues like school attendance or forced marriages.

Straw man diversion

Slightly more? If Pakistanis are only 2.7% of the UK population and whites are 82% you'd think it would be gigantically more. You're admitting there that Pakistanis are massively over represented in sexual abuse stats.

You idiot Obviously I'm talking about pro rata figures, not raw numbers

And you're happily dismissing a national scandal because you'd rather call it all racist and use it as a stick to beat the right wing with than admit any cultural contribution or even institutional failings that were affected those factors.

Another, somewhat desperate, strawman attack.

Try and divert away all you like.

I'm not even going to read it.

You've been caught out.

Happy squirming.

 

[AuroraSaab]

You Aurora spoke about your outrage that trans activists had disrupted a GC meeting in Brighton by banging on the windows. In fact they banged on the downstairs windows where the GCs were drinking before the meeting which was held upstairs. I know because I was inside the hotel that evening.

For 3 hours they tried to stop women meeting and talking.

https://www.theargus.co.uk/news/17923150.crowd-protesters-picket-womens-rights-meeting-hours/

It's hardly relevant to the current discussion though.

You Aurora on the other hand have said nothing about 136 children that were kidnapped from another hotel in Brighton and by reports I have seen those children have not been seen again. Could it be that because these children are not white working class girls, that they are not worth as much as a mention.

And? There's lots of things I haven't mentioned on here; the California fires, the Afghan cricket debacle, the heat death of the universe.

You have said nothing about them either, even though it happened 18 months ago, other than to moan that I haven't mentioned them today.

This really is a piss poor attempt at ad hominem.

 

[AuroraSaab]

It's racist to be racist. You've been caughtYou idiot Obviously I'm talking about pro rata figures, not raw numbers.

Well we can look forward to not investigating why traveller kids don't all attend school because that would be racist to ask, or why black inner city youths are more likely to be caught up in gang crime or knife incidents, or in combating fgm, or even why UK black people are more likely to be overweight. Think of the money we'll save by not being racist and asking if there are cultural issues involved. Think of the money we'll save not having to do anything about it.

Where are you getting your pro rata data from? I thought you said the data wasn't clear?

 

[monkers]

For 3 hours they tried to stop women meeting and talking.

https://www.theargus.co.uk/news/17923150.crowd-protesters-picket-womens-rights-meeting-hours/

It's hardly relevant to the current discussion though.

I went to the hotel and to the meeting. Nobody tried to stop me entering or leaving. Instead I had to walk between two rows of protesters who were holding placards and loudly chanting 'trans rights are human rights'. The protest was noisy to begin with, a loud hailer overpowered conversation in the lounge. When the meeting went upstairs the police prevented the use of the loud hailer with concern for the peace of hotel residents. You've posted about this.

At another Brighton hotel 136 children were kidnapped and not seen again. And from you? Silence.

This is not false equivalence. These kidnappings and disappearance of children didn't seen to matter to you. Nor did the murder of Brianna Ghey it seemed at the time.

The point I'm making to you is that if you care about children, girls and boys then the Brighton kidnappings would be very poignant, and you wouldn't have failed to comment on it. Instead we hear you saying 'white working class girls'.

And to be clear, I did say the sum of your posts, and there are very many' lend plenty of evidence to your political orientation.

 

[multitool]

Well we can look forward to not investigating why traveller kids don't all attend school because that would be racist to ask, or why why black inner city youths are more likely to be caught up in gang crime or knife incidents, or in combating fgm, or even why UK black people are more likely to be overweight. Think of the money we'll save by not being racist and asking if there are cultural issues involved. Think of the money we'll save not having to do anything about it.

Where are you getting your pro rata data from? I thought you said the data wasn't clear?

LOL

Squirm squirm squirm

Still deliberately pretending not to understand the difference between claiming that Pakistanis are more prone to raping children and understanding that race may have been a factor in how these criminals were treated.

One of these things is racist, one isn't. It's racist because there is no difference in offending rates between white paedophiles and Pakistani paedophiles (in fact Pakistanis rates are slightly lower) If there was a "cultural" propensity the rates would be higher.

What you and your far right friends have done is try to pretend that Pakistani child rape is somehow different in cause than white rape. It isn't.

A similar category error is when racists call violent Islamic extremists "terrorists" but call white extremists "lone wolves". Exactly the same racist tactic.

You've then tried to mask your racism by conflating it with how these two groups of offenders are treated.

You've drunk the far right Kool Aid.

Exactly as I predicted you would.

 

[AuroraSaab]

At another Brighton hotel 136 children were kidnapped and not seen again. And from you? Silence.

And from you also silence. What are we to deduce from the fact that you haven't even mentioned an event of 18 months ago about a completely different topic than that under discussion?

This is not false equivalence. These kidnappings and disappearance of children didn't seen to matter to you.

Nor to you. Where's your thread on it? When did you mention it previously?

Nor did the murder of Brianna Ghey it seemed at the time.

I don't feel the need to start a thread on every tragic event, however sad it was.

The point I'm making to you is that if you care about children, girls and boys then the Brighton kidnappings would be very poignant, and you wouldn't have failed to comment on it. Instead we hear you saying 'white working class girls'.

It's awful but it's not relevant to the topic because it's not a remotely similar crime, didn't go uninvestigated, and wasn't ignored by everyone for years. This is just desperate ad hominem stuff.

 

[AuroraSaab]

LOL. Squirm squirm squirm.
Still deliberately pretending not to understand the difference between claiming that Pakistanis are more prone to raping children and understanding that race may have been a factor in how these criminals were treated.

One of these things is racist, one isn't. It's racist because there is no difference in offending rates between white paedophiles and Pakistani paedophiles (in fact Pakistanis rates are slightly lower) If there was a "cultural" propensity the rates would be higher.

I thought you said the data wasn't clear? Do you have a link? As most child sexual abuse is by offenders within their own community it's not really relevant to grooming gang prosecutions, which is the issue at hand.

Nowhere have I said 'Pakistanis are more prone to raping children'.

Let's have the screen shot where I said that.

I've said they are overrepresented in grooming gang prosecutions and based on this, and the experiences of victims, parents, and whistleblowers, I've suggested that culture was a contributory factor to both the offending and the institutional response. You now seem to be saying the same.

 

[monkers]

Nor did the murder of Brianna Ghey it seemed at the time.

I don't feel the need to start a thread on every tragic event, however sad it was.

I didn't say you should have started a thread; I noted that when it was under discussion you appeared that you simply couldn't care less.

But this is why discussion with you is always fruitless, because you think anything that shows you in your true light can be dismissed with any form of mischaracterisation of what is said to you.

 

[multitool]

I thought you said the data wasn't clear? Do you have a link? As most child sexual abuse is by offenders within their own community it's not really relevant to grooming gang prosecutions, which is the issue at hand.

Nowhere have I said 'Pakistanis are more prone to raping children'.

Let's have the screen shot where I said that.

I've said they are overrepresented in grooming gang prosecutions and based on this, and the experiences of victims, parents, and whistleblowers, I've suggested that culture was a contributory factor to both the offending and the institutional response. You now seem to be saying the same.

Here comes the sea-lioning.

So you don't like "more prone to". OK, let's change it "culturally predisposed to"...because that is an accurate paraphrasing of what you said and it highlights even more the racism.

 

[monkers]

We are talking about a specific type of offence - grooming for rape purposes - and whether the scale of this type of offence was ignored or down played for cultural and political reasons, of which ethnicity may have been one.

Fair enough. For this specific offence of gang grooming 84% of offenders were Asian in one investigation carried out by British Pakistani researchers.

This looks bad ( and it is).

However for the specific offence of paedophile rings the offenders were 100% white.

So if you really want to go down the path of looking at rates for specific offences, then it is quite wrong to cherry-pick one cohort while choosing to ignore the other cohorts for other specific sexual offences.

Otherwise, if we select paedophile rings as the group of offenders for a specific sexual offence then they are 100% white men. Will you likewise maintain the 'cultural difference' approach here?

 

[AuroraSaab]

So if you really want to go down the path of looking at rates for specific offences, then it is quite wrong to cherry-pick one cohort while choosing to ignore the other cohorts for other specific sexual offences.

We are discussing crime of a specific nature. It would be daft to consider the offending rate by ethnic group for say armed bank robberies in a discussion on street mugging because they are crimes of a different nature.

Otherwise, if we select paedophile rings as the group of offenders for a specific sexual offence then they are 100% white men. Will you likewise maintain the 'cultural difference' approach here?

Yes, if they shared characteristics - like being Catholic priests - that may have influenced their behaviour, their choice of victim, and how the authorities treated them. As we know, all those things were in fact contributory to the nature of offending and to it being covered up for decades. By your logic there should be no more investigations if abuse within a church arises again because cultural factors like them all being priests aren't relevant.

 

[monkers]

We are discussing crime of a specific nature. It would be daft to consider the offending rate by ethnic group for say armed bank robberies in a discussion on street mugging because they are crimes of a different nature.

Don't be so ridiculous.

Paedophile rings have everything do with grooming gangs - both organised CSE.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Here comes the sea-lioning.

It's not sea lioning to ask for the links to data you are stating.

So you don't like "more prone to". OK, let's change it "culturally predisposed to"...because that is an accurate paraphrasing of what you said and it highlights even more the racism.

I didn't say that either. You just said "understanding that race may have been a factor in how these criminals were treated" isn't racist and that's pretty much what I've said. When you look at what the victims say it's hard to claim culture wasn't a factor in their treatment by the perpetrators.

 

[monkers]

Yes, if they shared characteristics - like being Catholic priests - that may have influenced their behaviour, their choice of victim, and how the authorities treated them. As we know, all those things were in fact contributory to the nature of offending and to it being covered up for decades. By your logic there should be no more investigations if abuse within a church arises again because cultural factors like them all being priests aren't relevant.

By my logic, any organisation should be subject to scrutiny where there is engagement in CSE whatever it be in terms of religion, politics, a charity or any other factor. Any supposed increased level in hypocrisy probably won't be reflected in sentencing, or at least it shouldn't be.

 

[multitool]

I didn't say that either. You just said "understanding that race may have been a factor in how these criminals were treated" isn't racist and that's pretty much what I've said. When you look at what the victims say it's hard to claim culture wasn't a factor in their treatment by the perpetrators.

Yes, I did say that, and no it isn't racist.

But this isn't at all what we are talking about.

You have claimed that Pakistanis are more culturally predisposed to raping children.

This is racist, because it isn't at all true.