Starmer's vision quest

[BoldonLad]

And what is 'efficient' in this context? I think you'll find mega farms in the US that are highly 'efficient'. That doesn't stop the food produced being of poor standard or stop US farmers going to the wall. (I no nothing of the latter, so am prepared to be corrected).

Well, no doubt “efficient” can be defined in numerous ways, but, you can still have food standards, animal welfare etc, it is still possible to operate such systems optimally.

I assume you would not advocate a return to the farmers wife pulling the plough, or, maybe shire horses reintroduced.

I am not a farming expert, but, isn’t it possible to produce decent quality food without returning to some halcyon time in the past?

 

[BoldonLad]

There are grants, but they are more than swallowed up by the massive additional cost of specialist materials and building techniques stipulated by the authorities. I can't remember the exact figures, but friends of mine with a G2-listed house were told they had to use specific slates to re-roof it which were something like 4x the price per slate, and that was for a relatively simple job. IIRC the grant offered was along the lines of a "Bad luck, here's a Amazon token to cheer you up!", it was so paltry in comparison.

I think you are making my point for me?, we don’t subsidise your friends, why should we subsidise a farmer?

 

[briantrumpet]

And what is 'efficient' in this context? I think you'll find mega farms in the US that are highly 'efficient'. That doesn't stop the food produced being of poor standard or stop US farmers going to the wall. (I no nothing of the latter, so am prepared to be corrected).

Here are some figures from about eight years ago. I think in that time that the routine use of antibiotics in EU and UK agriculture has declined further, as they have been reduced (quite rightly) as 'performance enhancers' and as a cover-up for poor hygiene practices.

'Efficiency' is often a synonym for reducing cost regardless of the welfare or ecological implications.

https://www.saveourantibiotics.org/media/1791/comparison-of-us-and-uk-farm-antibiotic-use.pdf

 

[briantrumpet]

I think you are making my point for me?, we don’t subsidise your friends, why should we subsidise a farmer?

I don' think you've understood where I'm coming from at all.

The US has to subsidise healthcare massively and inequitably, because they've lost control of the healthcare industry; the UK's subsidy is much more efficiently used (and probably the same in EU & Scandi countries) because they've used the subsidies to effectively keep control of the market itself through their massive buying power, not a reactive shoring-up of a dysfunctional market.

 

[Psamathe]

About 40% of farming income is subsidised (on average). I'll just leave that out there for comments on how hard done by they are.

My worry about this is that subsidising the start point can end-up just putting higher profits into the intermediate supply chain rather than the consumer eg like when ebooks became zero rated for VAT and consumer pricing remained unchanged but vendors (eg Amazon) made higher profits.

Where it gets more complex is cheap imports and why our farms can't compete with many imports (even after higher transport costs for imports).

 

[BoldonLad]

I don' think you've understood where I'm coming from at all.

The US has to subsidise healthcare massively and inequitably, because they've lost control of the healthcare industry; the UK's subsidy is much more efficiently used (and probably the same in EU & Scandi countries) because they've used the subsidies to effectively keep control of the market itself through their massive buying power, not a reactive shoring-up of a dysfunctional market.

There is that word “efficient” again 😊

 

[briantrumpet]

I think you are making my point for me?, we don’t subsidise your friends, why should we subsidise a farmer?

Sorry, was replying to a different post. They do subsidise them to a degree, but it's paltry, and feeding the population of a country in a vaguely sustainable and predictable fashion is rather different to what slates you put on a house that you can sell if you need to.

Western agriculture has largely delivered excess in a post WW2 period of differing degrees of political and economic turmoil. Any starvation has been political choices, rather than one of actual availability. That's not entirely been down to the free market.

 

[briantrumpet]

There is that word “efficient” again 😊

It's a double-edged sword. It tends to mean whatever people want it to mean.

 

[Ian H]

There is that word “efficient” again 😊

It's a double-edged sword. It tends to mean whatever people want it to mean.

I thought that was Excalibur.

 

[BoldonLad]

It's a double-edged sword. It tends to mean whatever people want it to mean.

All I am suggesting is that the “Agricutural Industry”, like every other group, has vested interests, it is not even a uniform unit, with large variations is size, profit etc.

Perhaps, it is time to give them a shake up.

 

[briantrumpet]

All I am suggesting is that the “Agricutural Industry”, like every other group, has vested interests, it is not even a uniform unit, with large variations is size, profit etc.

Perhaps, it is time to give them a shake up.

Of course, but I circle back to Chesterton's Fence, not least as the stakes (steaks, fnarr fnarr) are so high: quite apart from being able to feed the nation with nutritious food (which has never been cheaper in relation to household budgets), there are profound environmental and societal impacts - for good or bad - from what the farming industry does, and any changes could have decade or lifelong impacts.

Bear in mind that three things: food, housing, and fuel, have driven the biggest changes in societies since the beginning of human history, and will continue to do so, as they are so fundamental to survival and comfort of each one of us.

Just witness 'toilet paper panic' at the slightest sign of disruption of normal routines, and then think what would happen if, for whatever reason, we couldn't be sure that our food supply would deliver what we've got used to.

 

[briantrumpet]

I thought that was Excalibur.

No, that's an alcohol-free beer that you've already drunk.

 

[Pblakeney]

Just witness 'toilet paper panic' at the slightest sign of disruption of normal routines, and then think what would happen if, for whatever reason, we couldn't be sure that our food supply would deliver what we've got used to.

I remember empty shelves during Covid. It was a slight piece of insight, now completely forgotten along with everything else.

 

[briantrumpet]

I remember empty shelves during Covid. It was a slight piece of insight, now completely forgotten along with everything else.

I can just about understand Pasta Panic, as at least it's a concentrated belly-filler. Maybe they need to invent toilet paper that is similarly efficient, along the lines of those things you get in Indian restaurants. As long as one doesn't get the two things confused and end up with uncooked spaghetti up your arse.

 

[Pblakeney]

I can just about understand Pasta Panic, as at least it's a concentrated belly-filler. Maybe they need to invent toilet paper that is similarly efficient, along the lines of those things you get in Indian restaurants. As long as one doesn't get the two things confused and end up with uncooked spaghetti up your arse.

The specific item that comes to mind was tomatoes, but there was a shortage of other foodstuffs.