Starmer's vision quest

[Xipe Totec]

You'll find that the 'straw poll ' is still valid today, probably even more so

So, where should one go to 'find' confirmation of that claim?

I mean, apart from the screaming maelstrom of hate-chaos echoing inside your tiny little pin-head?

 

[BoldonLad]

The bits I remember were fun, but those are mostly memories of birthday parties running around the garden and jumping in the paddling pool in my terry toweling swim shorts, or going narrowboating with my nanna and grandad and making my little plastic boat on a string cruise along side the boat.

My memories are of mortgages, high interest rates, unreliable cars, job insecurity, strikes, power cuts, and having a young family to feed, clothe etc 😊

 

[CXRAndy]

My memories are of mortgages, high interest rates, unreliable cars, job insecurity, strikes, power cuts, and having a young family to feed, clothe etc 😊

But they were good times 😁

 

[CXRAndy]

View: https://x.com/WilliamClouston/status/1922044068319682845?t=CRAztzg2CfpB5Z9o6dtLXw&s=19

 

[CXRAndy]

View: https://x.com/TiceRichard/status/1922206078164443469?t=P6xjm0v71L-YM0OLuvDPrw&s=19

 

[C R]

 

[Stevo 666]

The 1970s sounded really fun. Let's go back there.

I thought Labour was taking us back there?

 

[Stevo 666]

View: https://x.com/WilliamClouston/status/1922044068319682845?t=CRAztzg2CfpB5Z9o6dtLXw&s=19

I suspect that (while Starmer isn't the sharpest tool in the political box) he has at least worked out that immigration is a big issue for a lot of the electorate and knows that if not addressed will result in a bloke called Nigel moving into his current address in 2029. However my gut feel is that Starmer is saying what he thinks people want to hear rather than doing something effective about it. I guess we will need to see what happens to the numbers.

 

[Stevo 666]

If you look at the detail though, the large increase in net migration is specifically driven by work and study visas (mainly health care in relation to work), not so called randoms who become a burden. I have said this before, but the main issue with immigration is the lack of accurate information disseminated and also politicians unwillingness to talk about it honestly. Net migration is not being driven by asylum numbers or people coming to the UK for humanitarian reasons, it is being driven by students and workers, and most importantly Non-EU. You do also have to link this to brexit, EU net migration is down, but all we have essentially done is replace these numbers with people from outside the EU.

If people do really want to reduce net migration, you have to be fundamentally honest about the reasons people are coming here and the implications for the UK if we reduce the numbers.

1) International students. If we reduce the numbers that obviously has a negative effect on UK Universities and the reduction in funding effectively kills a large number of them, taking thousands of jobs with it.
2) Workers, specifically in sectors such as health and social care. This is an economic and societal problem, people live longer and there are more of us, we need more hospitals, more plans for longer term healthcare for chronic conditions, more residential beds, more community/place based care, more mental health services. We simply do not have enough money to fund all of this or enough UK workers to cover the sectors. If we want to reduce our reliance on foreign workers then we need huge investment and a massive overhaul of the NHS/Local authority budgets, healthcare training (including better public sector pay etc.). This isn't going to happen so we need foreign workers or the system becomes untenable.

Immigration is such a complex issue but politicians and the media have for decades reduced it to a simplistic (and untrue) narrative of people coming here to take "our jobs" and drain "our services". The reality is that the people that really drain services are far more likely to be British, unemployed and suffer from chronic healthcare conditions, usually caused by class inequality.

It is definitely a complex issue and you raise some good points.

On your specific cases:
1. International students - maybe I'm missing the point, but don't international students generally go home once they graduate? In which case if the overall population of intl student is steady, they shouldn't materially affect the numbers.
2. Workers in specific sectors - while I am generally in favour of people coming here who have skillsets that allow them to be net contributors, I said above that where certain sectors have demonstrable shortages that require relatively lower skilled immigration that that is OK in principle (but clearly needs to have some mechanisms to prevent abuse of the rules).

I stand by my point above that increasing the net population of the UK by an amount more than a city the size of Manchester every year into the indefinite future isn't sustainable.

The old 'taking our jobs' and 'draining our services' have become weaponised to some degree, but in the end it is generally the UK working class who suffer from increased competition from lower skilled labour from abroad so it is an issue for many. And where there is a finite supply of services (for example doctors appointment or school places) then those coming to the UK are putting added strain on those services. That said, I would have thought that housing is the biggest issue as they all need somewhere to live and the current rate of immigration exceed even Labour's stated house building targets, never mind what it will actually achieve on that front.

 

[CXRAndy]

There is talk the white paper being bandied around, contradicts his speech yesterday.

 

[CXRAndy]

Is Ed Sheeran spot on, Londoners


View: https://x.com/TRobinsonNewEra/status/1922054185480012052?t=T87hjbN-YfoQNKocjXTq-A&s=19

 

[First Aspect]

It is definitely a complex issue and you raise some good points.

On your specific cases:
1. International students - maybe I'm missing the point, but don't international students generally go home once they graduate? In which case if the overall population of intl student is steady, they shouldn't materially affect the numbers.
2. Workers in specific sectors - while I am generally in favour of people coming here who have skillsets that allow them to be net contributors, I said above that where certain sectors have demonstrable shortages that require relatively lower skilled immigration that that is OK in principle (but clearly needs to have some mechanisms to prevent abuse of the rules).

I stand by my point above that increasing the net population of the UK by an amount more than a city the size of Manchester every year into the indefinite future isn't sustainable.

The old 'taking our jobs' and 'draining our services' have become weaponised to some degree, but in the end it is generally the UK working class who suffer from increased competition from lower skilled labour from abroad so it is an issue for many. And where there is a finite supply of services (for example doctors appointment or school places) then those coming to the UK are putting added strain on those services. That said, I would have thought that housing is the biggest issue as they all need somewhere to live and the current rate of immigration exceed even Labour's stated house building targets, never mind what it will actually achieve on that front.

Ive never understood point 1 either.

As to point 2, if you are going to restrict skills shortages based immigration, it's best to do it gradually and at the safe time you are trying to fix the domestic skills shortage. So again, I don't really understand the current policy.

My fear is that care work is regarded as being so unskilled anyone can do it. Perhaps the qualifications are zero or easy to get, but it is far from the case that anyone can do it. Nor would you want most people to try.

 

[Pblakeney]

Ive never understood point 1 either.

As to point 2, if you are going to restrict skills shortages based immigration, it's best to do it gradually and at the safe time you are trying to fix the domestic skills shortage. So again, I don't really understand the current policy.

My fear is that care work is regarded as being so unskilled anyone can do it. Perhaps the qualifications are zero or easy to get, but it is far from the case that anyone can do it. Nor would you want most people to try.

This.
It doesn't matter if you agree with the policy or not. It doesn't matter if anyone thinks it is a good idea, because it isn't in it's current form.
To cut off any supply before you have an alternative is stupid, plain and simple. There has to be a transitional period.

 

[CXRAndy]

Hardly anyone goes home from poor countries. They either claim asylum or disappear into the black economy. ECHR has been weaponised, '

'can't go home my son like chicken nuggets'

 

[First Aspect]

Hardly anyone goes home from poor countries. They either claim asylum or disappear into the black economy. ECHR has been weaponised, '

'can't go home my son like chicken nuggets'

No doubt supported by data. Oh wait, we don't need data.