Starmer's vision quest

[Pblakeney]

To be fair, most 'not guilty' verdicts are actually just not proven guilty: balance of probabilities and all that.

That's as maybe but if you were innocently accused wouldn't you appreciate a proven innocent verdict?
Maybe not how it works, maybe a fantasy, but it is what I'd want if falsely accused.

 

[C R]

To be fair, most 'not guilty' verdicts are actually just not proven guilty: balance of probabilities and all that.

I thought for criminal cases it was beyond reasonable doubt rather than balance of probabilities.

 

[C R]

That's as maybe but if you were innocently accused wouldn't you appreciate a proven innocent verdict?
Maybe not how it works, maybe a fantasy, but it is what I'd want if falsely accused.

My understanding is that the default is that you are innocent unless found guilty. The defendant is never proven innocent, and it is not the job of the defendant to prove their innocence, it is the job of the prosecution to prove guilt, innocence is assumed.

 

[briantrumpet]

I thought for criminal cases it was beyond reasonable doubt rather than balance of probabilities.

It is. IIRC, coroners' verdicts are balance of probability.

 

[Ian H]

It is. IIRC, coroners' verdicts are balance of probability.

"On balance, we think he's dead."

 

[Pblakeney]

My understanding is that the default is that you are innocent unless found guilty. The defendant is never proven innocent, and it is not the job of the defendant to prove their innocence, it is the job of the prosecution to prove guilt, innocence is assumed.

As I said, a fantasy but I'd want it stated innocent on the record. Assumptions regularly fail and you are still left with "no smoke without fire".

 

[matticus]

As I said, a fantasy but I'd want it stated innocent on the record. Assumptions regularly fail and you are still left with "no smoke without fire".

I have a friend who was found "not guilty" of something pretty serous a few years ago. He is still followed around by "no smoke without fire" nastiness from the few local people in the know.
Sadly i don't have a practicable answer for this ...

 

[Bazzer]

It is. IIRC, coroners' verdicts are balance of probability.

Not just coroners's court. AFAIK it is all civil litigation so; employment tribunals, civil prosecutions, HMRC non prosecution hearings etc.

 

[Mr Celine]

Not quite as I understand it.
Acquittal is for good while not proven can be retried as it was not proven either way.

Only in very limited circumstances, for example a subsequent confession by the accused.

And this only became possible after 2011. Prior that no accused who had been acquitted, (either not proven or not guilty) could be retried.
The Double Jeopardy (Scotland) Act 2011 resulted from the World's End murder case.

 

[glasgowcyclist]

And this only became possible after 2011. Prior that no accused who had been acquitted, (either not proven or not guilty) could be retried.
The Double Jeopardy (Scotland) Act 2011 resulted from the World's End murder case.

Exactly. Once a trial has concluded you are deemed to have tholed your assize and cannot be tried again on the same evidence.

 

[icowden]

This just in - leaked Whatsapp chat from the labour leadership re Trumps visit...
https://mrhenrymorris.substack.com/...mpaign=post&utm_medium=web&triedRedirect=true