Starmer's vision quest

[briantrumpet]

The specific item that comes to mind was tomatoes, but there was a shortage of other foodstuffs.

Whatevs, people panic the moment that they think that something they think of 'essential' is going to be in shortage. Which is rather an indicator of how normalised abundance has become. Relatively, that's only a fairly recent phenomenon.

 

[Pblakeney]

Whatevs, people panic the moment that they think that something they think of 'essential' is going to be in shortage. Which is rather an indicator of how normalised abundance has become. Relatively, that's only a fairly recent phenomenon.

I was trying to keep it relevant to farming. 😉

 

[Shortfall]

I can just about understand Pasta Panic, as at least it's a concentrated belly-filler. Maybe they need to invent toilet paper that is similarly efficient, along the lines of those things you get in Indian restaurants. As long as one doesn't get the two things confused and end up with uncooked spaghetti up your arse.

We've all done it. 😘

 

[BoldonLad]

I remember empty shelves during Covid. It was a slight piece of insight, now completely forgotten along with everything else.

I remember empty shelves before Covid, during my time in former USSR, even hotels and restaurants had scant rations (and, no bog roll) 😊

 

[BoldonLad]

Of course, but I circle back to Chesterton's Fence, not least as the stakes (steaks, fnarr fnarr) are so high: quite apart from being able to feed the nation with nutritious food (which has never been cheaper in relation to household budgets), there are profound environmental and societal impacts - for good or bad - from what the farming industry does, and any changes could have decade or lifelong impacts.

Bear in mind that three things: food, housing, and fuel, have driven the biggest changes in societies since the beginning of human history, and will continue to do so, as they are so fundamental to survival and comfort of each one of us.

Just witness 'toilet paper panic' at the slightest sign of disruption of normal routines, and then think what would happen if, for whatever reason, we couldn't be sure that our food supply would deliver what we've got used to.

Exactly. All the more reason to have a long term plan, and to work methodically and steadily toward to planned outcome.

No chance of course with the current crop of Politicians (regardless of party).

IMHO, the most significant “advance” in the “human condition” is probably clean water and a working sewerage system 😊 Not very exciting, perhaps, but, rather necessary

 

[First Aspect]

How much of education is subsidised? Or healthcare?

This isn't whataboutery, rather illustrating that society makes choices about to what degree we hand over control of essential services to the free market, and to what degree we need to be able to guarantee access for everyone, and some degree of predictability.

But it does errode the poor hard done by farmers argument.

I think it's instructive that the only outrage about the IHT change came from the people in line to pay it.

 

[briantrumpet]

But it does errode the poor hard done by farmers argument.

I think it's instructive that the only outrage about the IHT change came from the people in line to pay it.

Most of them would be better off realising their assets and doing something else, and not working 365 days a year in shit. Thankfully most of them put up with the shit, literal and metaphorical.

What would you think would be a good income from, say, a £5m business where three members of the family work from 6am to 9pm, seven days a week?

And no, that's not some exaggeration, that's the family I visited down your way a month or two ago, and has been the whole of their married life. Perhaps you'd care to visit.

As I say again, Chesterton's Fence. You need to *know* that whatever you're proposing is going to be less shit that what we've got now, and show how we get there. You can't eat unicorns if you're hungry.

 

[briantrumpet]

We've all done it. 😘

There maybe better and worse choices for which type gets stuck up yer colon. Linguini might be the most appropriate, I suppose. I'm sure they've seen it all at A&E.

 

[briantrumpet]

FWIW, those kinds of valuations aren't anything extraordinary in a moderate family farm, and for the most part, I suspect, are disregarded in business calculations, other than when assessing borrowing capacity or disposal, as they are largely inelastic and uncontrollable.

 

[briantrumpet]

The specific item that comes to mind was tomatoes, but there was a shortage of other foodstuffs.

I'd advise against tomatoes in this context, not least as they wouldn't be very absorbent, and furthermore might cause consternation to any observers of the, erm, fallout.

 

[First Aspect]

Most of them would be better off realising their assets and doing something else, and not working 365 days a year in shit. Thankfully most of them put up with the shit, literal and metaphorical.

What would you think would be a good income from, say, a £5m business where three members of the family work from 6am to 9pm, seven days a week?

And no, that's not some exaggeration, that's the family I visited down your way a month or two ago, and has been the whole of their married life. Perhaps you'd care to visit.

As I say again, Chesterton's Fence. You need to *know* that whatever you're proposing is going to be less shit that what we've got now, and show how we get there. You can't eat unicorns if you're hungry.

That's not the universal farming experience. If it's that bad, something is going badly wrong.

Some farmers just work hard. The two farms either side of us before we moved were livestock. It's not what I'd want to do, but there was certainly down time. Perhaps that's easier somehow, I don't know.

 

[briantrumpet]

That's not the universal farming experience. If it's that bad, something is going badly wrong.

Some farmers just work hard. The two farms either side of us before we moved were livestock. It's not what I'd want to do, but there was certainly down time. Perhaps that's easier somehow, I don't know.

Steady on chap!

 

[PurplePenguin]

It is a way of life that many don't understand. By way of example, most don't retire they just downsize a bit.

 

[briantrumpet]

And, FWIW, I can't tell you what a relief it is when you do a job that isn't so dependent on British weather. Having watched the first series of Clarkson's Farm (sorry), his absolute frustration at not being able to plant anything for two solid weeks because it was pissing down was as genuine a thing as I've ever seen Clarkson do. It's no wonder that the suicide rate amongst farmers is stubbornly high, as it might feel to some as if it's the only thing they've got some agency about.

tl:dr - this isn't saying that farming subsidies are immutable & incontestable, but if you were to fade them out, you'd need to make sure that whatever replaced the current systems could deliver better outcomes in many spheres (environmental, societal, continuity of supply at whole-population level, etc) at lower overall cost. Purist ideologies tend to be more often fundamentally flawed than ideological compromises that muddle through (somehow) year after year with something that actually Isn't Too Shit.

 

[First Aspect]

It is a way of life that many don't understand. By way of example, most don't retire they just downsize a bit.

Perhaps IHT planning will change that.

It's a way of life that, from what I observed, is relentlessly slow paced.

I wouldn't want to do it. But nor would I want to teach any of those children things. Or spend time with bankers.

But by the same token if you asked a farmer or a teacher how they feel about recording time to 6 minute resolution 7+ hours a day 5-6 days a week they might think that is some kind of well paid punishment.

Doesn't change whether or not farming is given a high value by the state, and the reaction to IHT is overblown.

Fwiw the main issue was a lack of time for estate planning, rather than the policy itself.