The UK political parties - what's going on?? thread.

[Deleted member 49]

And he was up against Theresa May, who even the Tories got rid of.

Ok if we're splitting hairs....Starmer is against Johnson without the media slurs
My point still stands
Face facts Corbyn and his manifesto were popular before Brexit and all the lies ?
Principles and Starmer lol

 

[Rusty Nails]

Ok if we're splitting hairs....Starmer is against Johnson without the media slurs
My point still stands
Face facts Corbyn and his manifesto were popular before Brexit and all the lies ?
Principles and Starmer lol

Popular with whom?

I agree that he was popular within the party membership, but would disagree that Corbyn was ever popular with most of the electorate. Probably due to the media, but the unfairness in that is a fact of political life today. Personally, I always thought there was less to him than meets the eye.

I agree that Starmer's recent improvement in popularity is because of Johnson. He could indeed end up as the man who wins because he isn't someone else. I'll take that if it gets rid of the Tories.

 

[Deleted member 49]

Popular with whom?

I agree that he was popular within the party membership, but would disagree that Corbyn was ever popular with most of the electorate. Probably due to the media, but the unfairness in that is a fact of political life today. Personally, I always thought there was less to him than meets the eye.

I agree that Starmer's recent improvement in popularity is because of Johnson. He could indeed end up as the man who wins because he isn't someone else. I'll take that if it gets rid of the Tories.

I'll humour you... more people voted for Corbyn in 2017 than any other Labour leader this century.
Number of votes @UKLabour has won at general elections held this century:

1. Corbyn 2017: 12,878,460 (40%)
2. Blair 2001: 10,724,953 (40.7%)
3. Corbyn 2019: 10,269,051 (32.1%)
4. Blair 2005: 9,552,436 (35.2%)
5. Miliband 2015: 9,347,273 (30.4%)
6. Brown 2010: 8,609,527 (29%)
But don't let that cloud your judgement.

 

[Rusty Nails]

I'll humour you... more people voted for Corbyn in 2017 than any other Labour leader this century.
Number of votes @UKLabour has won at general elections held this century:

1. Corbyn 2017: 12,878,460 (40%)
2. Blair 2001: 10,724,953 (40.7%)
3. Corbyn 2019: 10,269,051 (32.1%)
4. Blair 2005: 9,552,436 (35.2%)
5. Miliband 2015: 9,347,273 (30.4%)
6. Brown 2010: 8,609,527 (29%)
But don't let that cloud your judgement.

Certainly better GE results than any Labour leader since the disastrous financial crash and the middle East wars, including those heavyweights Miliband and Brown.

Look at his personal popularity ratings in 2017, Never in positive figures and worse ratings than any other Labour leader. The party was almost successful despite Jeremy Corbyn, not because of him. Just imagine how well they would have done with a moderately competent leader.

Corbyn has gone, due to his own shortcomings. Just file it away with other good memories, like the glory days when England won the World Cup and the country used to win the Ashes.

 

[Fab Foodie]

Sorry Muddersie.

Stickers!

 

[Fab Foodie]

I'll humour you... more people voted for Corbyn in 2017 than any other Labour leader this century.
Number of votes @UKLabour has won at general elections held this century:

1. Corbyn 2017: 12,878,460 (40%)
2. Blair 2001: 10,724,953 (40.7%)
3. Corbyn 2019: 10,269,051 (32.1%)
4. Blair 2005: 9,552,436 (35.2%)
5. Miliband 2015: 9,347,273 (30.4%)
6. Brown 2010: 8,609,527 (29%)
But don't let that cloud your judgement.

Yebbut they won not. That's the point. The wounded Theresa still got the gig.
Unfortunately, after this brief honeymoon period Corbyn's stock fell.

 

[slowmotion]

I was just amusing myself at Slowmo's expense. The anyone-but-Corbyn brigade aren't so great when it comes to owning the political situation they've created.

I tend towards the least bad option. I don't feel any obligation to defend the slightly less ghastly alternatives.

 

[FishFright]

Whoever decided it, it was a bad idea imo, in the same way as the union block vote was a bad idea. To be allowed a say in the running of a political party should require some demonstration of commitment e.g. minimum period of fee-paying membership. The internet and social media makes it much easier for concerted campaigns (even malevolent ones) to have a large impact.

And he was up against Theresa May, who even the Tories got rid of.

What happened to executive responsibility. I thought Corbyn was in charge of policy as Leader of the party. Yes, it was bad advice and PR for Starmer to support a second referendum, but by doing that wasn't he sticking to his principles, which many say he has not done?

You are right. As one who was not Corbyn's greatest fan it should have been 'almost anyone but Corbyn'. In hindsight Burnham would have been a much better choice in 2015 but the Corbyn bandwagon was too strong at that stage, before people realised he didn't have the ability to steer it. I accept my part in believing that Starmer was a better leader, and would have voted for him if I were still a party member. He has been very disappointing. It must be remembered that Corbyn was not kicked out but made a principled resignation because of the many electoral losses under his tenure. What else could he have done?
It should also be noted that Starmer is slowly getting more support in public polls, although that must be taken in the context of the disaster that is Johnson.

If you are talking about members of the groups proscribed by the NEC being expelled then I have no problem with that. Were those members who joined during Corbyn's leadership Labour supporters or people who may have seen the opportunity to move the party further to the left under the cult of "Oh Jeremy Corbyn"? AIUI many have left anyway since his defeat and the harsh reality of grown-up politics hitting, which is no great demonstration of their commitment.
I would not comment on individual cases without knowing the

I and very many others have a great problem with this . And the cult of Corbyn is right of the Mail.

 

[FishFright]

Popular with whom?

I agree that he was popular within the party membership, but would disagree that Corbyn was ever popular with most of the electorate. Probably due to the media, but the unfairness in that is a fact of political life today. Personally, I always thought there was less to him than meets the eye.

I agree that Starmer's recent improvement in popularity is because of Johnson. He could indeed end up as the man who wins because he isn't someone else. I'll take that if it gets rid of the Tories.

You can disagree with facts all day long but that won't change them.

 

[Rusty Nails]

I and very many others have a great problem with this . And the cult of Corbyn is right of the Mail.

It was the nearest we in the sedate UK are ever going to get to a cult. He had had 32 years of virtual anonymity on the back benches before people realised he was just carefully biding his time, or was it just out of desperation. And do not tell me that chanting of "Oh Jeremy Corbyn" was not cringeworthily cult-like. I remember one member writing about a public campaign meeting in their town as if he was giving the Sermon on the Mount. It was unsustainable when reality set in, and always going to end in disappointment.
I am sorry that you have a great problem with my views but I believe that being a man of principle and sound left wing ideals, especially when allied to a lack of political judgement, is not enough to lead a major party, or the government, otherwise Denis Skinner or my father could have done the job.

P.S. You mention facts in a subsequent post but It is a fact that his personal public popularity was always very low, too low to overcome in a GE. Every election that he led the party through, whether GE, local or EU elections was marked by Labour disappointment. That is not bad luck.

 

[FishFright]

It was the nearest we in the sedate UK are ever going to get to a cult. He had had 32 years of virtual anonymity on the back benches before people realised he was just carefully biding his time, or was it just out of desperation. And do not tell me that chanting of "Oh Jeremy Corbyn" was not cringeworthily cult-like. I remember one member writing about a public campaign meeting in their town as if he was giving the Sermon on the Mount. It was unsustainable when reality set in, and always going to end in disappointment.
I am sorry that you have a great problem with my views but I believe that being a man of principle and sound left wing ideals, especially when allied to a lack of political judgement, is not enough to lead a major party, or the government, otherwise Denis Skinner or my father could have done the job.

P.S. You mention facts in a subsequent post but It is a fact that his personal public popularity was always very low, too low to overcome in a GE. Every election that he led the party through, whether GE, local or EU elections was marked by Labour disappointment. That is not bad luck.

Maybe your memory isn't the best but -
His personal popularity was so bad that everywhere he went to talk it was filled with people
He got within a Unionist bribe of forming a government
It took the combined efforts of the Tories, the bbc , the papers and members of his own party to keep him out of government
It was Brexit that killed the second election for Labour, they were shocking.

But you know all these things because you've read them many times on here but it's easier to be wrong .

 

[Deleted member 49]

Corbyn has gone, due to his own shortcomings. Just file it away with other good memories, like the glory days when England won the World Cup and the country used to win the Ashes.

Thanks thats me told....not !
Cricket lol...

 

[Rusty Nails]

Maybe your memory isn't the best but -
His personal popularity was so bad that everywhere he went to talk it was filled with people
He got within a Unionist bribe of forming a government
It took the combined efforts of the Tories, the bbc , the papers and members of his own party to keep him out of government
It was Brexit that killed the second election for Labour, they were shocking.

But you know all these things because you've read them many times on here but it's easier to be wrong .

Filled with people who wanted him as Leader. Of course there were loads of supporters there but that means diddly squat in terms of public support and votes in a population of 70 million. Not relating Corbyn to the nasty shoot at all but there were plenty of people at Farage speeches before Brexit.

Yes he was close, but still lost, and imagine what difference a competent, and less divisive, leader could have made to the result. The time was ripe to have defeated May. He was an electoral liability.

The Tories will, unfairly, always get a better press, and I love it when the Tories and Labour both side with the Mail and slate the BBC. I suppose it was Kuenssberg what done it.

Brexit was a disaster for Labour, there is no doubt about that, and of course Labour's role in Brexit was nothing to do with Corbyn at all. I thought he was leader and the face of Labour.

 

[farfromtheland]

If you are talking about members of the groups proscribed by the NEC being expelled then I have no problem with that. Were those members who joined during Corbyn's leadership Labour supporters or people who may have seen the opportunity to move the party further to the left under the cult of "Oh Jeremy Corbyn"? AIUI many have left anyway since his defeat and the harsh reality of grown-up politics hitting, which is no great demonstration of their commitment.
I would not comment on individual cases without knowing the details.

Here is yet another Jewish voice on the subject
https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/another-day-another-purge-jay-kramers-expulsion/
There are many more. Nothing to do with membership of proscribed groups.

 

[farfromtheland]

Dennis Skinner didn't join Jeremy Corbyn's shadow cabinet when asked, because he thought reform of the Labour party from the grass roots was needed before he could take such a role. I thought at the time and still think he was right. The 'leadership cult' was not of Corbyn's choosing either.

I see no evidence that Jeremy Corbyn manipulated the situation for his own ends or to get elected leader, he took the leadership because he was nominated and elected. He then had to front some policies he did not wholeheartedly support, such as the second referendum call, because it was party policy. He was democratic to that extent.

These two paragraphs can be read in either order.