War with Russia

[briantrumpet]

Not surprised at the back tracking, but not being able to find a front page article I was just reading is, a bit.

Well, I've not seen any other references to Rubio's denial, so maybe even that was a Russian-supplied line.

 

[secretsqirrel]

Well, I've not seen any other references to Rubio's denial, so maybe even that was a Russian-supplied line.

Back up on beeb now. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4g95x50kdyo

 

[secretsqirrel]

What was the old saying, “If your going to lie you better have a good memory….”

 

[briantrumpet]

Back up on beeb now. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4g95x50kdyo

It has all the hallmarks of arse covering by Rubio, having said one thing to the senators then getting rebuked by Wittkoff who'd transcribed the Russian plan and passed it off as his own.

 

[secretsqirrel]

It has all the hallmarks of arse covering by Rubio, having said one thing to the senators then getting rebuked by Wittkoff who'd transcribed the Russian plan and passed it off as his own.

To be fair to Rubio, he is the only one on Team Trump that ever looks embarrassed or uncomfortable at the antics of his leader.

He is probably watched very closely….

 

[secretsqirrel]

It is just another variation on TACO. Donnie's negotiation tactics are always go in hard and backtrack to an agreeable point.
Sometimes that point is near the beginning, sometimes it fails completely.

Generous to call it a tactic, I think he just throws out random ‘thoughts‘ to see if anything floats.

 

[Pblakeney]

Generous to call it a tactic, I think he just throws out random ‘thoughts‘ to see if anything floats.

It is too consistent to be random, but generous to be thought of as tactics I guess.
Default position is - I want.

 

[Psamathe]

BBC Radio this morning talking about "Fractures in the Western Alliance". To me that beggared belief, no fracture, just that Trump has completely switched sides, now aligned himself with Russia rather than with Europe/"West". When will our politicians realise this and react accordingly/appropriately, he can't make it any more obvious.

 

[RecordAceFromNew]

What the hell do you mean by that statement? You blame Ukraine?! You preferred that Zelensky capitulated in the 1st day?
Russia is being hammered financially and physically: almost 1.2m men injured or killed, a sinking Rubel, a massive black hole is emerging in the economy, debts to China are rising, falling oil revenue where the best Russia can get for a barrel of crude oil is a mere $36.5, the West (Europeans) are supporting Ukraine* with drone production and development, missiles and ammunition and money, logistics and intelligence.
Russia has advanced (by the most optimistic estimates) just 90km in 4 years which translates to 13300 men per km. Russia's former ex soviet block countries are turning against Putin. This winter will be the first winter Russia will face serious power outages and the war is going to hit home in earnest.
Saboteurs inside Russia are getting braver and more daring as the opposition to them are occupied elsewhere. Putin has fired heads of industry, seized assets of Oligarch's and assassinated many as he desperately tries to hold on to power and look strong. Russia's air defence is in such a bad state, Ukraine is hitting significant infrastructure with decreasing resistance.
The threat of WW3 is now long gone. If NATO mobilised, they would flatten what's left with very little counter.

*Not just European support, for example:

Japan provides extensive support to Ukraine through financial aid, humanitarian assistance, and non-lethal military equipment. Japan has pledged billions of dollars in support, which includes budget and reconstruction funding, as well as contributions to international programs. Additionally, Japan offers technical cooperation through organizations like JICA, humanitarian assistance for displaced persons, and resources like satellite data and military vehicles to aid Ukraine's defence.

So I do not agree with you. The consensus amongst economists is that Ukraine needs to hold out for about 8 months, by then Russia will be in economic freefall.

Have you been scouring for 'news' favourable to Ukraine, and then think since they are preponderant they reflect reality?

Why not try looking for obvious logical implications of easily demonstrable facts for a change? For example, isn't it an easily proven and undisputed fact that Ukraine (and their cheering allies) would like nothing more than an immediate ceasefire, which however has been firmly rejected by Russia which wants a modus vivendi agreed first? Has it then never crossed your mind, just using your noggin and simple common sense, which side is vastly more incentivised to seek an immediate ceasefire, the winning side, or the side being beaten to a pulp?

In case Trump's mediation is not taken up, shall we come back in 8 months time and review their relative positions?

--------------------

The problem in this country, and the West in general, is most have pinned a blue and yellow flag on their own mast, having believed the press and their political leaders (whom oddly they usually despise and distrust) that this is a good (us of course) vs evil, invaded vs invader fight. I wish there was another way to put it, but this is naive thinking. It is obvious which superpower has been #1 by far in invading, killing and displacing foreigners for decades. It is not Russia. The fact we had/have been allied with the devil does not make it or us a saint, does it?

In case there is any misunderstanding, I am not telling you Russia good USA bad. My point is we live in an anarchic world in which no higher effective authority above states exists, or else Bush, Blair and just about every single Israeli political leaders would surely be in clink if not shot by now, shouldn't they? Consequently, in this dangerous, lawless world national leaders are duty bound to act in their own people's and country's interest, not someone else's. That is Zelensky's big mistake when he chose to take the side of a big bad wolf a world away against one next door, when he should have put on his clown act, and stayed neutral instead. The result, is history. If he isn't too stupid to understand this, I don't know how he can live with himself.

If people interpret events and the world based on what they hope/fear/wish instead of what it is, they will constantly be wrong, be surprised, and be disappointed. For example, whatever your opinion of Trump, Putin, Boris, Starmer, Zelensky etc., they are just the sausages from the sausage machine. Sure they are terrible sausages, but the fundamental problem, is the machine. Do y'all understand this?

 

[Pblakeney]

Have you been scouring for 'news' favourable to Ukraine, and then think since they are preponderant they reflect reality?

Why not try looking for obvious logical implications of easily demonstrable facts for a change? For example, isn't it an easily proven and undisputed fact that Ukraine (and their cheering allies) would like nothing more than an immediate ceasefire, which however has been firmly rejected by Russia which wants a modus vivendi agreed first? Has it then never crossed your mind, just using your noggin and simple common sense, which side is vastly more incentivised to seek an immediate ceasefire, the winning side, or the side being beaten to a pulp?

In case Trump's mediation is not taken up, shall we come back in 8 months time and review their relative positions?

--------------------

The problem in this country, and the West in general, is most have pinned a blue and yellow flag on their own mast, having believed the press and their political leaders (whom oddly they usually despise and distrust) that this is a good (us of course) vs evil, invaded vs invader fight. I wish there was another way to put it, but this is naive thinking. It is obvious which superpower has been #1 by far in invading, killing and displacing foreigners for decades. It is not Russia. The fact we had/have been allied with the devil does not make it or us a saint, does it?

In case there is any misunderstanding, I am not telling you Russia good USA bad. My point is we live in an anarchic world in which no higher effective authority above states exists, or else Bush, Blair and just about every single Israeli political leaders would surely be in clink if not shot by now, shouldn't they? Consequently, in this dangerous, lawless world national leaders are duty bound to act in their own people's and country's interest, not someone else's. That is Zelensky's big mistake when he chose to take the side of a big bad wolf a world away against one next door, when he should have put on his clown act, and stayed neutral instead. The result, is history. If he isn't too stupid to understand this, I don't know how he can live with himself.

If people interpret events and the world based on what they hope/fear/wish instead of what it is, they will constantly be wrong, be surprised, and be disappointed. For example, whatever your opinion of Trump, Putin, Boris, Starmer, Zelensky etc., they are just the sausages from the sausage machine. Sure they are terrible sausages, but the fundamental problem, is the machine. Do y'all understand this?

You do realise that Russia invaded Ukraine and could end the war today simply by walking home?
Do y'all understand this?

 

[AndyRM]

It's a shame that post was peppered with such patronising pish, because there are some fairly reasonable points in there.

 

[briantrumpet]

A long and credible read on the clusterfuck of the Ukraine "plan".

https://macspaunday.substack.com/p/he-got-this-from-k?r=58wgiw&utm_medium=ios

tl;dr It what happens when you have incompetents who are sympathetic to Putin in charge of the US.

 

[Dorset Boy]

Hmm, so Putin invades Ukraine not once, but twice within a decade, acting as the agressor, and the rest of Europe (and other western states) should stand by and do diddly squat?
Why should Ukraine not be allowed to look west for its future rather than east? Who is Putin to determine how Ukraine should view its future.

Because the US can be perceived to have done wrong in other parts of the world, it doesn't mean they should just stand back and let Putin invade Ukraine, followed by the Baltic States, followed by parts of Finland.

Looks like we have undercovered a Putin mole

 

[Pinno718]

It's a shame that post was peppered with such patronising pish, because there are some fairly reasonable points in there.

I think he's another Putin fluffer. Some decent vocabulary

Have you been scouring for 'news' favourable to Ukraine, and then think since they are preponderant they reflect reality?

Why not try looking for obvious logical implications of easily demonstrable facts for a change? For example, isn't it an easily proven and undisputed fact that Ukraine (and their cheering allies) would like nothing more than an immediate ceasefire,

?
A ceasefire but on what terms that would be a) beneficial to Ukraine b) prevent future aggression from Russia?

which however has been firmly rejected by Russia which wants a modus vivendi

Russia wants a modus vivendi? What planet are you on?

agreed first? Has it then never crossed your mind, just using your noggin and simple common sense, which side is vastly more incentivised to seek an immediate ceasefire, the winning side, or the side being beaten to a pulp?

I don't know what the hell you are trying to say. If you are suggesting that Ukraine is being beaten to a pulp and we should side with Russia, then you are in cloud dictatorship land. If you are saying Ukraine should capitulate, then no. Ukraine has held out for 4 years and Russia is suffering financially. Russia has advanced 90km's at best and have lost almost 1.2m men.

In case Trump's mediation is not taken up, shall we come back in 8 months time and review their relative positions?

Trump is certainly not mediating on behalf of Ukraine. Trump is mediating on behalf of mineral companies and his mate Putin.

--------------------

The problem in this country, and the West in general, is most have pinned a blue and yellow flag on their own mast, having believed the press and their political leaders (whom oddly they usually despise and distrust) that this is a good (us of course) vs evil, invaded vs invader fight. I wish there was another way to put it, but this is naive thinking. It is obvious which superpower has been #1 by far in invading, killing and displacing foreigners for decades. It is not Russia. The fact we had/have been allied with the devil does not make it or us a saint, does it?

'Allied with the devil' ? Which devil have we allied with? So Russia are the good guys in all of this?

In case there is any misunderstanding, I am not telling you Russia good USA bad. My point is we live in an anarchic world in which no higher effective authority above states exists, or else Bush, Blair and just about every single Israeli political leaders would surely be in clink if not shot by now,

What the hell is that ^ all about?

a world away against one next door, when he should have put on his clown act, and stayed neutral instead. The result, is history. If he isn't too stupid to understand this, I don't know how he can live with himself.

You ate spouting absolute bollox dressed in Latin with a sprinkling of a half decent vocabulary that's trying to make yourself look clever. How could Zelensky have stayed neutral when Ukraine was being invaded ffs? If you have been taken in by the Fox News/Trump propaganda, then you would assume this p.o.v. Ukrainians did not want to an annexe of Russia. Ukraine as a sovereign nation would not be in existence if it were not for Zelensky, initially Biden and the European alliance.

If people interpret events and the world based on what they hope/fear/wish instead of what it is, they will constantly be wrong, be surprised, and be disappointed. For example, whatever your opinion of Trump, Putin, Boris, Starmer, Zelensky etc., they are just the sausages from the sausage machine. Sure they are terrible sausages, but the fundamental problem, is the machine.

Do y'all understand this?

Zelensky took the side of a big bad wolf. uh? Zelensky is defending his country against the aggressor. I think anarchy reigns in your head.
'Do y'all understand this?' ?? Are you American? Can you be more condescending?
In the story of the 3 little piggies, the clever piggy won.

 

[briantrumpet]

Trump is certainly not mediating on behalf of Ukraine. Trump is mediating on behalf of mineral companies and his mate Putin.

And his son-in-law Jared Kushner, apparently, who was there for the Gaza negotiations too. Keep it in the family.