When were you last inspired by a British politician?

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C R

Über Member
There is more genetic diversity within the continent of Africa than in the rest of the world combined.

My point was that both jews and arabs are semitic peoples. I think that from the population genetics point of view jews are probably a subgroup of the arabs, which isolated itself from the rest. BTW, they are originally from the Arabian area of Western Asia, not from Africa.
 

winjim

Welcome yourself into the new modern crisis
My point was that both jews and arabs are semitic peoples. I think that from the population genetics point of view jews are probably a subgroup of the arabs, which isolated itself from the rest. BTW, they are originally from the Arabian area of Western Asia, not from Africa.

That's kind of the point I was making as well and why the notion of 'race' as an objective descriptor is a nonsense.
 
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BoldonLad

Old man on a bike. Not a member of a clique.
Location
South Tyneside
6% seems quite high to me. I mean we're all basically functioning humans / primates / mammals / chordates / animals / living things. Some of us just look a bit different and can drink milk without getting the squits.

Maybe it was less than 6%, I did say, subject to my memory, it is a few years ago that I looked it up.
 

C R

Über Member
That's kind of the point I was making as well and why the notion of 'race' as an objective descriptor is a nonsense.

And that's why I asked above. If you didn't know that Baddiel is jewish, could you tell he was jewish and not a non-jew from Jordan or Syria or Iraq?
 

icowden

Legendary Member
I think Baddiel has shown himself to be a useful idiot with an inflated sense of status as some kind of public intellectual. He's probably still pissed off because Rob Newton is the smarter, funnier one. I know the blackface thing is a long time ago, and if he weren't so grudging and belated in his acknowledgement of it, he'd be cut a bit more slack, but he's just one of many people now piling in on Abbott who, given their own past or current credentials, need to Sit the Fuck Down.
It's Rob Newman (Newton was the gravity guy). He apologised fulsomely for the blackface thing and even apologised for leaving it so late to apologise in person. He also hasn't "piled in" on Abbott as far as I am aware.

This is his article for the New Statesman (cut n pasted to save you all having to get around the paywall). It seems quite fair to me and makes some good points:-
Some time ago, I wrote a book called Jews Don’t Count. It is about how, in my opinion, Jews and anti-Semitism are positioned low down in the mix of the identity politics conversation. The book has had some impact. I have written another one since about something else (The God Desire).

After Jews Don’t Count I felt I should move on, partly because I would like to think that the dial has now shifted on anti-Semitism and race, and that continuing to bang the drum on the issue may not be necessary.

I would like to think this – but that often feels, perhaps, optimistic. Over the weekend, the Observer published a letter by the Labour backbencher Diane Abbott. It was a response to an article by the writer Tomiwa Owolade in which he discussed the racism suffered by various groups, including Jews and Travellers. The letter objects to this, suggesting that what these groups, imagined by Abbott as “white”, experience is something lesser: prejudice, she says, similar to that suffered by redheads. She goes on to mention historical instances of terrible anti-black oppression in which these groups did not suffer, ending with: “and at the height of slavery, there were no white-seeming people manacled on the slave ships”.

This is of course true. But in the middle of the 20th century, six million Jews – and at least 200,000 Roma and Sinti – were murdered, due to being categorised as members of an inferior race.

When I started writing Jews Don’t Count, there were certain things I thought were on the nursery slopes of my point, and perhaps the principal one was that anti-Semitism is racism. It is not, as some who wish to downgrade the seriousness of it like to imply, religious intolerance. I am an atheist. That would have given me no free pass out of Auschwitz. My great uncle Arno was not an observant Jew. He died in the Warsaw Ghetto. And presently, the white supremacists in the United States who carry torches and chant “The Jews will not replace us” would not, I think, inquire if I kept kosher before burning down my house.

I have said all this many times now, but it does not land in certain ears. The blockage appears to be particularly around the use of the word racism, which seems – for some, although clearly not Owolade – ring-fenced for people of colour. The same ring-fencing occurred when Whoopi Goldberg claimed the Holocaust – a racial genocide that began with the installation of the Nuremberg racial purity laws – was not about race: it was, she said, a “white on white” issue, despite the specific categorisation of Jews by Nazis as non-white.

Talking about this tends to lead to arguments about whether Jews can be considered a race, or an ethnicity, or a people, or a religion, which are all irrelevant. The point is, throughout history, Jews have been racialised. They have been classed, by majority cultures much more powerful than them, as an alien, verminous race, leading to murderous consequences. This is of course racism, whether Jews, in some a priori anthropological way, are or are not a race.

When I get asked, as I do, if I think this or that well-known British left-wing politician is an anti-Semite I always answer no. Because an anti-Semite is someone who directly, at the front of their head, hates Jews and yearns for their eradication.

The “Jews don’t count phenomenon” is much subtler. It operates only indirectly. It’s when something – a concern, a protectiveness, a championing, a cry for increased visibility, whatever it might be – is not being applied to Jews. If you were to use the language that progressives apply now to other minorities, you might say it functions as a form of unconscious bias.

I saw it in a tweet Abbott posted in 2018 in response to me calling out the racist abuse of the Jewish Labour MP Luciana Berger. She said: “The targeted online abuse of women in public life is simply unacceptable.” Which, obviously, I agree with. But I noticed something else: Abbott’s response, by turning what I was saying about the particular abuse suffered by Berger into a point about women in public life, erased the anti-Jewish racism involved – a tactic similarly deployed by the right when it tries to erase the racism suffered by black people by widening #BlackLivesMatter to #AllLivesMatter.

I have talked before about a hierarchy of racism – and received much online blowback as a result, not least from progressives keen to proclaim that if there is such a thing, Jews, with all the silly whining and fussing they make about anti-Semitism, are somehow at the top of it.

But what we see in Abbott’s letter is confirmation of something beyond even the idea of a hierarchy: an insistence that the discrimination Jews and other ethnicities suffer does not even deserve the term racism. The MP has apologised for her letter, and in her apology states that she understands that Jewish people and the other groups mentioned have experienced monstrous racism.

As someone who has done his fair share of public apologies, I am happy for that to stand. But I nonetheless retain in my mind the underlying currents contained within what she called the “initial draft” of her letter, and somewhat reluctantly conclude that, at some point, I am going to have to write Jews Still Don’t Count.
 

Ian H

Guru
And that's why I asked above. If you didn't know that Baddiel is jewish, could you tell he was jewish and not a non-jew from Jordan or Syria or Iraq?

...or the USA?

I'm not entirely sure what point you're trying to make.
 

BoldonLad

Old man on a bike. Not a member of a clique.
Location
South Tyneside
That's kind of the point I was making as well and why the notion of 'race' as an objective descriptor is a nonsense.

Which was also, sort of my point way back when I asked for a definition.

It would appear, after several pages, we have been discussing nonsense. But, language evolves, words take on new meanings, etc etc, perhaps it will be sense, in a 100 years or so.
 

winjim

Welcome yourself into the new modern crisis
And that's why I asked above. If you didn't know that Baddiel is jewish, could you tell he was jewish and not a non-jew from Jordan or Syria or Iraq?

Possibly not. But I'm not sure that's important in the context. If one is inclined to anti-semitism then it's possible that prejudice would be directed towards all Jewish looking people regardless.
 

C R

Über Member
...or the USA?

I'm not entirely sure what point you're trying to make.

I was replying to @winjim's point that Baddiel "looks jewish" pointing out that most middle eastern people have that general look, jewish or not.

Possibly not. But I'm not sure that's important in the context. If one is inclined to anti-semitism then it's possible that prejudice would be directed towards all Jewish looking people regardless.

I don't think bigots in general are that well informed. They'll use whatever excuse is at hand. Remember the guy in the US that shot a sikh man after the September 11th attacks because "he was a towelhead so he must be a muslim?"
 

matticus

Guru
It's Rob Newman (Newton was the gravity guy). He apologised fulsomely for the blackface thing and even apologised for leaving it so late to apologise in person. He also hasn't "piled in" on Abbott as far as I am aware.

This is his article for the New Statesman (cut n pasted to save you all having to get around the paywall). It seems quite fair to me and makes some good points:-

I think what Baddiel says is a very fair analysis. But how a bout a WhatIf? experiment ...

No-one who traded slaves from Africa to USA/UK is still around. Pretty much no-one that supported the Holocaust is alive either.
Does it still make sense to quote those atrocities when defining (or ranking) racism? I think racism actually happening here in 2023 is more important (and of course there is far too much of it, against many groups).
 

monkers

Guru
I think what Baddiel says is a very fair analysis. But how a bout a WhatIf? experiment ...

No-one who traded slaves from Africa to USA/UK is still around. Pretty much no-one that supported the Holocaust is alive either.
Does it still make sense to quote those atrocities when defining (or ranking) racism? I think racism actually happening here in 2023 is more important (and of course there is far too much of it, against many groups).

An anecdote. Before the referendum I was chatting with a woman local to me, she offered a range of opinions and beliefs ...
A is her, B is me ... an actual conversation in the arcade cafe at the seafront.

A - ''Nigel Farage is an excellent Prime Minister''.

B - ''David Cameron is the Prime Minister. Nigel Farage has never yet been elected as an MP.''

A - look of disbelief, ''well he should be.''

B - ''why?''

A - ''coz, democracy, he says what literally everyone is thinking.''

Later.

A - ''I'm definitely going to be voting leave.''

B - ''OK, why?''

A - ''Because I love Eurovision. I don't think it's right that people from Muslamic countries like Israel should be even allowed to be in Eurovision, let alone be allowed to win it.''

B - ''But isn't the reason that the UK hasn't won for ages is because other countries haven't voted for our act.''

A - ''That's because they are all racists, and that's why we should leave the EU, so we get away from people who are racist against England.''

B - ''Eurovision isn't actually anything to do with the EU. If it was, and the UK leaves the EU, then we wouldn't be able to compete. We'd no longer be in it.''

A - ''They couldn't stop us coz we're English.''

Later.

A - ''I don't think 16 year olds should be allowed to vote.''

B - ''But you have a 16 year old over there.''

A - ''But he doesn't know anything.''

B - ''Ask him who the Prime Ministers is.''

A - Calls out to son who is nearby playing pool - ''Oi Lee, who is the Prime Minister.''

Lee - ''David Cameron.''

A - ''I'm sure it's Nigel Farage though.''

Lee - makes gunshot gesture to his temple and carries on.

Now I was working in education at the time, and I felt ashamed.
 
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BoldonLad

Old man on a bike. Not a member of a clique.
Location
South Tyneside
An anecdote. Before the referendum I was chatting with a woman local to me, she offered a range of opinions and beliefs ...
A is her, B is me ... an actual conversation in the arcade cafe at the seafront.

A - ''Nigel Farage is an excellent Prime Minister''.

B - ''David Cameron is the Prime Minister. Nigel Farage has never yet been elected as an MP.''

A - look of disbelief, ''well he should be.''

B - ''why?''

A - ''coz, democracy, he says what literally everyone is thinking.''

Later.

A - ''I'm definitely going to be voting leave.''

B - ''OK, why?''

A - ''Because I love Eurovision. I don't think it's right that people from Muslamic countries like Israel should be even allowed to be in Eurovision, let alone be allowed to win it.''

B - ''But isn't the reason that the UK hasn't won for ages is because other countries haven't voted for our act.''

A - ''That's because they are all racists, and that's why we should leave the EU, so we get away from people who are racist against England.''

B - ''Eurovision isn't actually any to do with the EU. If it was, and the UK leaves the EU, then we wouldn't be able to compete. We'd no longer be in it.''

A - ''They couldn't stop us coz we're English.''

Later.

A - ''I don't think 16 year old should be allowed to vote.''

B - ''But you have a 16 year old over there.''

A - ''But he doesn't know anything.''

B - ''Ask him who the Prime Ministers is.''

A - Calls out to son who is nearby playing pool - ''Oi Lee, who is the Prime Minister.''

Lee - ''David Cameron.''

A - ''I'm sure it's Nigel Farage though.''

Lee - makes gunshot gesture to his temple and carries on.

Now I was working in education at the time, and I felt ashamed.

I did a "laugh", but, it is not really funny, rather frightening really, but, in my experience, not in the least unusual.

Maybe, it is the company we keep? ;)
 
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monkers

Guru
I did a "laugh", but, it is not really funny, rather frightening really, but, in my experience, not in the least unusual.

Maybe, it is the company we keep? ;)

Oh and I missed out the bit where she was certain that we need to ''bring back capitalism'' believing that to be capital punishment. It's why she votes Conservative ''because they are capitalists''.

But then again, we had Roger Helmer the UKIP MEP promoting homeopathy believing it to be a gay cure. And another UKIP candidate at a Hustings event questioning the wisdom of investment in green energy, ''because what are we going to do when all the renewables run out.''

I despair.
 
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