97yo convicted in Holocaust trial
- Thread starter matticus
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I have read of reports that some knowledge of what was happening across occupied Europe reached Britain, but it simply wasn't believed. We are of course looking at this with hindsight after the camps had been liberated.
It's the old dilemma of how responsible are you for 'obeying orders'. Does that let you off the hook for criminal activities? At the Nürnberg trials this was not allowed as a defence.
I think there were various factors that resulted in large numbers of war criminals never being brought to justice, especially after the main culprits had been tried and executed.
The western allies and Russia needed the cooperation of the population in their respective zones of occupation, and endless war trials were unlikely to facilitate this. It also became harder to gather evidence as the east became increasingly cut off from the west. The communists were suspicious of the 'western imperialists' and started to refuse to cooperate with investigations.
All this was of course in the context of massive destruction and chaos across the whole continent. Whole cities had been bombed flat, and the German economy at the end of the war was functioning at 20% of its pre-war capacity. We think 4% loss of GDP is bad!
One of the factors aiding the German economic miracle was they worked hard to bury a guilty conscience. I have seen German teenagers crying with shame when the anniversary of some particular atrocity comes round. They weren't guilty of anything, their grandparents should have wept with shame, but unfortunately far too many of that generation would not admit their guilt and complicity.
I wonder as well if continuing to highlight German war crimes might have led to questioning the conduct of the allies during the war. The targetting of the civilian population for bombing and unrestricted submarine warfare being two prime examples. If it was wrong for the Germans to do it, ...
I read part of Adenauer's autobiography, and he maintained that if you wanted former Nazis to embrace the new Federal Republic and its democracy, you could not ban them from participation in its politics and institutions for ever. This would just breed resentment and perhaps a longing to get back to the good old days of the Reich. There was to be no repetition of the mistake of WW1 where the new German republic was not accepted by many as it was burdened with the guilt and shame of defeat and the humililation of the peace treaty.
No doubt as more responsibility was handed back to the Germans after the war an old boys' network would have sought to cover up war crimes.
I wonder if Adenauer was right to keep the old national anthem* - the tune anyway, the words are different. It is certainly a better tune than the dirge the poor Brits have to sing! It was actually the Weimar anthem and again Adenauer didn't want a complete break with the past.
*I love Michael Flanders' renditioning of the words as German German overalls!
That's enough post-Christmas pontificating from me! Time for another glass of Alsatian wine.
the snail
Active Member
No germans were forced to participate in the holocaust, they were volunteers who could quit if they wanted to, afaik none did. Without the book-keepers and administrators the industrial slaughter wouldn't have been possible, and they must have known exactly what was happening. Guilty as sin, so long as any are still alive, they should be made to face justice and take responsibility, even in their 90s - the elderly weren't spared from the death camps were they?
Bromptonaut
Rohan Man
- Location
- Bugbrooke, Northants
Where do you get the bolded bit from?
Military were under orders.
Even in the UK we had directed labour - eg the 'Bevin boys' down the mines.
I cannot believe, in the dictatorship of the Third Reich, one had a great deal of choice. Arms factories, prison camps etc. all needed workers.
Ian H
Guru
You could argue with some justification that "I was only following orders" is a legitimate excuse.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
AuroraSaab
Legendary Member
It's hardly volunteering when the alternative is court martial/show trial then death. I would imagine the fate of those who did quit was a bit of a deterrent to the rest. That's not to deny that there weren't citizens in Germany, and Poland, Austria, and France, who were more than happy to partake in rounding up Jewish residents, but I think most people's compliance and passivity was borne out of fear.
Leaving postcards like this in phone boxes was enough to get Otto and Elise Hempel beheaded:
"German people, wake up!
We must free ourselves from Hitlerism!"
BoldonLad
Old man on a bike. Not a member of a clique.
- Location
- South Tyneside
A link to support this assertion would be interesting
AndyRM
Elder Goth
Yeah, that's a fairly reductionist viewpoint in my opinion too.
I suppose technically they had a choice. But they really didn't.
And where do you stop? Atrocities have always been committed in armed conflict. I've always thought the moral scale was a hugely grey and challenging area. The British were operating concentration camps way before the Nazis, so who are we to judge?
And then you've got the murky nature of countries where Nazis fled to, or hid things, or abetted them.
It's impossible to know where to draw the line for me. Which isn't to say I condone what National Socialism represented and did, but realistically what's convicting a 97 year old going to achieve?
the snail
Active Member
Yes, some of the military were under orders, but as I understand it those at the heart of the killing, SS, einsatzgruppen etc were selected from the most ideologically committed. The idea that participants had no choice is largely a myth.
Bromptonaut
Rohan Man
- Location
- Bugbrooke, Northants
The woman in this case was a civilian.
AndyRM
Elder Goth
Exactly. And a very young woman at the time. Did she know what was going on? Yes, I can accept that.
Do I think she had any choice in the matter? It's impossible to say for sure, but I very much doubt it.
For me it's all about context. A young woman working as a secretary with bosses who'd probably execute her if she didn't do what was she was told?
Rusty Nails
Country Member
It is so easy to be judgemental about the options for people at a very bad time in history when sitting tip-tapping into a tablet in between catching up on a bit of work or watching the telly.
"AIUI" means nothing without facts to back it up, especially when talking about civilian workers, as in this case, and not the SS.
"AIUI" means nothing without facts to back it up, especially when talking about civilian workers, as in this case, and not the SS.
AuroraSaab
Legendary Member
I agree there were a hard core of German officers, and some civilians, who were fully on board with Nazism and enthusiastic about whatever Hitler cared to direct them to do, but I still think for the vast majority of the soldiers and the public it was a case of compliance because they had left it too late to do anything else. Some of the postcards written by the Hempels say things like 'Work more slowly' and 'Have fewer children' - by 1940 this was about the only level of resistance left that wouldn't be met with removal to a camp or execution.
We all like to think we would have actively opposed slavery in 1800's Alabama or stood up to Hitler in 1930's Berlin, but we probably wouldn't.
icowden
Legendary Member
In Russia, no-one is forced to vote for Vladimir Putin and they are free to support other politicians in political opposition parties.
Isn't it odd, how they don't?
Similarly, Russian Oligarchs are free to state that they disagree with Putin's invasion of Ukraine. It's purely coincidental that they all fall of buildings or down staircases shortly thereafter.
It's amazing how people who aren't forced, just don't do what you might expect...
Beebo
Veteran
Two more just died on the same holiday to India. There were four people on the trip and two died. The other two must be very lucky.
The good old Indian police have wrapped up the case as a Stroke and Suicide. Case closed, nothing to see here. We’ll keep buying the Russian oil.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64101437
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