BRFR Cake Stop 'breaking news' miscellany

[Ian H]

Almost makes me want to go and look...

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When the shít hits the shít.

 

[C R]

It's not that I'm unsympathetic to promoting Welsh in Wales, but it just seems a little odd to me to be using a science PhD study to be doing so, as it seems to be putting the language aspect ahead of the sharing of scientific advancement through knowledge sharing.

Apologies, Gemini again

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The thing is, speakers of minority (and minorised) languages always have to deal with this thing that what they speak is not really worth much. Using it beyond the folcloric act that the majorised language speakers would reduce it to is important. My work did get disseminated, via two peer reviewed papers in good journals in my area. Not many people read final year dissertations or PhD theses except for completeness, because the work is also published in journals.

One of the usual accusations from Spanish nationalists is that speakers of minority languages just wanted to isolate themselves. The reality was that the Spanish only speakers used to come to me for help because I was using the original text books in English, while they struggled with piss poor Spanish translations instead of making the effort of learning English.

 

[briantrumpet]

The thing is, speakers of minority (and minorised) languages always have to deal with this thing that what they speak is not really worth much. Using it beyond the folcloric act that the majorised language speakers would reduce it to is important. My work did get disseminated, via two peer reviewed papers in good journals in my area. Not many people read final year dissertations or PhD theses except for completeness, because the work is also published in journals.

One of the usual accusations from Spanish nationalists is that speakers of minority languages just wanted to isolate themselves. The reality was that the Spanish only speakers used to come to me for help because I was using the original text books in English, while they struggled with piss poor Spanish translations instead of making the effort of learning English.

I don't suppose that your suggesting they learn English would have gone down awfully well...

Thing is, I suspect that trying to turn the tide via scientific papers is likely to reduce the impact of the research much more than increase appreciation and use of the language. I think there would be better vectors for that.

It's a less extreme example than the use of English for all air traffic control globally, but sharing of PhD-level research does not seem like the ideal forum for promoting niche minority languages (obviously Welsh is not niche in Wales, but vatly so in the scientific community), as it's exclusive: the language politics is taking precedence over the sharing of ideas as widely as possible.

 

[C R]

I don't suppose that your suggesting they learn English would have gone down awfully well...

Thing is, I suspect that trying to turn the tide via scientific papers is likely to reduce the impact of the research much more than increase appreciation and use of the language. I think there would be better vectors for that.

It's a less extreme example than the use of English for all air traffic control globally, but sharing of PhD-level research does not seem like the ideal forum for promoting niche minority languages (obviously Welsh is not niche in Wales, but vatly so in the scientific community), as it's exclusive: the language politics is taking precedence over the sharing of ideas as widely as possible.

I should have clarified that the papers were published in international journals in English. This is not only an issue for minorised languages only, either, Dutch for example, is falling out of use in technical disciplines in Dutch universities.

 

[briantrumpet]

I should have clarified that the papers were published in international journals in English. This is not only an issue for minorised languages only, either, Dutch for example, is falling out of use in technical disciplines in Dutch universities.

I think there are decent arguments both for promoting minority languages, and for using English as a standard language for sharing scientific research (more so than in the humanities in general).

Disappointingly, to agree (partially) with @First Aspect, I would argue that I'd expect (for instance) chemical elements to use standardised names, e.g. 'aluminium', for the same reason I'm arguing here for a standard language generally for sharing scientific ideas. It's kind of an extension of the idea of using Italian for musical terms, which has been an expecation of musicians since the 16th century.

 

[C R]

I think there are decent arguments both for promoting minority languages, and for using English as a standard language for sharing scientific research (more so than in the humanities in general).

Disappointingly, to agree (partially) with @First Aspect, I would argue that I'd expect (for instance) chemical elements to use standardised names, e.g. 'aluminium', for the same reason I'm arguing here for a standard language generally for sharing scientific ideas. It's kind of an extension of the idea of using Italian for musical terms, which has been an expecation of musicians since the 16th century.

For chemical elements everyone uses the standard symbols. But if I am speaking chemistry in Galician I will say chumbo for Pb, the same way that someone speaking chemistry in French will say plomb, it really is no different to someone speaking chemistry in Welsh.

 

[briantrumpet]

For chemical elements everyone uses the standard symbols. But if I am speaking chemistry in Galician I will say chumbo for Pb, the same way that someone speaking chemistry in French will say plomb, it really is no different to someone speaking chemistry in Welsh.

Obviously if you're talking amongst native speakers you're going to use the locally understood labels: I'm talking about published PhD-level (and above) work that is expected to be part of the international understanding of the various disciplines, given the discussion started about a PhD in chemistry.

 

[C R]

Obviously if you're talking amongst native speakers you're going to use the locally understood labels: I'm talking about published PhD-level (and above) work that is expected to be part of the international understanding of the various disciplines, given the discussion started about a PhD in chemistry.

PhD theses are not published in that sense, that's the point. The Welsh student writing their thesis in Welsh is no different than the Italian student writing their thesis in Italian or the Bulgarian student writing theirs in Bulgarian. The international dissemination happens by publishing in international journals, conferences, books, and to a lesser extent patents.

 

[briantrumpet]

PhD theses are not published in that sense, that's the point. The Welsh student writing their thesis in Welsh is no different than the Italian student writing their thesis in Italian or the Bulgarian student writing theirs in Bulgarian. The international dissemination happens by publishing in international journals, conferences, books, and to a lesser extent patents.

Well, by some ego-Googling, I know that more than one piece of my very humble MA work was read and referenced internationally. I suspect it wouldn't have been if it had been in Welsh. And that's my point: using a maybe lovely, worthy, but globally very restricted language seems like a conscious restriction of who can benefit from your work in a particular sphere, which I find odd, if you think your ideas have merit.

 

[briantrumpet]

Well, by some ego-Googling, I know that more than one piece of my very humble MA work was read and referenced internationally. I suspect it wouldn't have been if it had been in Welsh. And that's my point: using a maybe lovely, worthy, but globally very restricted language seems like a conscious restriction of who can benefit from your work in a particular sphere, which I find odd, if you think your ideas have merit.

Haha, doing some ego-Gemini-ing, apparently I'm now an American scholar. Gee.

 

[C R]

Well, by some ego-Googling, I know that more than one piece of my very humble MA work was read and referenced internationally. I suspect it wouldn't have been if it had been in Welsh. And that's my point: using a maybe lovely, worthy, but globally very restricted language seems like a conscious restriction of who can benefit from your work in a particular sphere, which I find odd, if you think your ideas have merit.

It seems to me that the objection is more to them not using English than to them using Welsh. Now change Welsh to French or Bulgarian or Dutch.

 

[Pblakeney]

Alberta won't separate from Canada.

Sensible people thought Brexit was a stupid idea. Sensible people thought re-electing Trump was a stupid idea.
Don't assume.

 

[briantrumpet]

It seems to me that the objection is more to them not using English than to them using Welsh. Now change Welsh to French or Bulgarian or Dutch.

It's just going to get more extreme the more niche the language is. Same principle applies, which is why English is tending more and more to the the language through which science is shared. I can see why that's not good for 'minority 'languages' in general terms, but is probably good for the sharing of scientific ideas. Canute and tides might be a relevant reference at this point.

 

[C R]

It's just going to get more extreme the more niche the language is. Same principle applies, which is why English is tending more and more to the the language through which science is shared. I can see why that's not good for 'minority 'languages' in general terms, but is probably good for the sharing of scientific ideas. Canute and tides might be a relevant reference at this point.

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Better get learning Mandarin.

 

[briantrumpet]

Better get learning Mandarin.

The battle's already been lost. Mandarin might well be the most widely-spoken language on Earth (mostly thanks to simply the size of the Chinese population), but it's going to take more than that to topple English as the language of science (and aviation). I'll be the first to admit that there's no logic as to "Why English?": it's just a combination of Empire, America, pidgin English (plus some linguistic things about the ease/lack of conjugation, genders and declensions).

The place to promote niche languages isn't going to be through science. There are far better vectors. It is a worthwhile cause.