But Where Are You Really From?

[matticus]

Sorry Matt, you're wrong. It's seeing skin colour and an 'exotic' name and effectively denying that this person could just be British by birth & by culture

That's not something I would do; but it's still not racism. (what's so great about being "British", that questioning that status becomes such a hate crime?!?) Where is the discrimination? Where is the prejudice? Did she ask Ngozi to leave, or mistreat her in some way because of her ethnicity?

A dispute over definitions of heritage isn't racism; it might be rude, it might be ignorant, it might make someone feel unwelcome, but that's not racism. I'm sure there are people in your village that dispute the status of incomers, there are debates going on right now about X playing sport for country Y due to their grandfather; these are just disagreements, not racism.

This expanding a well-defined concept to cover every minor act of rudeness relates to Obama's other words:
"there is this sense sometimes of the way of me making change is to be as judgmental as possible about other people, and that’s enough. If I tweet or hashtag about how you didn’t do something right or used the wrong verb, then I can sit back and feel pretty good about myself."

 

[matticus]

If you can't see that, well I'm not going to waste any further time trying to persuade you .

Excellent news!

 

[mudsticks]

An article written by someone else who was actually there too.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ssey-resign-monarchy-race-remarks-institution

She can safely be ignored by the usual suspects too .

"I generally avoid news about the royals. So it was a real eye-opener to find myself at the centre of a royal story. At a reception on Tuesday to honour those working to end violence against women and girls, I witnessed racist remarks from a member of the royal household directed at my friend and fellow activist, Ngozi Fulani. Lady Hussey’s prolonged interrogation about where Ngozi was really from, what her nationality was and where her people were from, was not – as many people have insisted to me over the past 24 hours – the kind of well-meaning curiosity that all of us experience from time to time (though it’s possible that Hussey believed that it was).

“Hackney” was Ngozi’s answer, but Hussey refused to accept this. Her response implied that Black and brown people couldn’t really be British. It implied that we were trespassing – and it made me reflect on the increasingly hostile environment of this disunited kingdom."

 

[icowden]

An article written by someone else who was actually there too.

And a very well written and well balanced article as well.

 

[matticus]

... was not the kind of well-meaning curiosity that all of us experience from time to time (though it’s possible that Hussey believed that it was).

Thankyou for posting this! It brings in another aspect I think has not been mentioned yet in this thread - intent.

Here's a handy rule-of thumb where offence is caused in these areas:
Intended? Probably racism
Not intended? Probably just rude or insensitive

Although as I've mentioned several times already, if actual discrimination occurs, that is also probably racism.

 

[Bromptonaut]

No idea if this is true or not.....

Lady Susan Hussey, who has stepped down as one of the King’s ladies of the household after insensitive comments to a black guest at a reception, can be clumsy in her small talk.

In the early 1990s Buckingham Palace was asked at short notice to host a reception for an American delegation on the way home from a Nato summit. Members of the royal household were scrambled to fill the room and Lady Susan found herself next to a charming visitor.

“What do you do for a living?” she asked. “I’m president of the United States of America,” a slightly surprised George Bush said…

Said to be a quote from The Times.

 

[winjim]

And a very well written and well balanced article as well.

'Ngozi didn’t even name her publicly'

I find that slightly disingenuous, she identified her as 'Lady SH' so I don't think there was a huge amount of detective work involved from those people familiar with palace employees.

Also if Sistah Space provide cultural competence training then isn't there just a teensy chance that at an institution like the Palace, this wasn't entirely unforseen and they might have had a reaction ready?

I'm not saying it's a setup or any sort of gay bed and breakfast style trap. I'm also not saying it's right that black people should have to be prepared and on their guard for this sort of thing. There's an awful lot that I'm not saying so please don't think that I am. But really, Royal Family in 'a bit racist actually' shocker? Whodathunk?

 

[mudsticks]

Thankyou for posting this! It brings in another aspect I think has not been mentioned yet in this thread - intent.

Here's a handy rule-of thumb where offence is caused in these areas:
Intended? Probably racism
Not intended? Probably just rude or insensitive

Although as I've mentioned several times already, if actual discrimination occurs, that is also probably racism.

I'm supposed to be leaving you alone because of your sensitivity to my input, but you tagged me so .

I'm afraid your 'rule of thumb' doesn't work.


It's entirely possible to be unintentionally racist, and discriminatory.

Just because you don't realise it or don't mean to be, doesn't mean it's not happening.

Of course you're arguably less at fault if you do it 'unintentionally' but it's still racism or other forms of discrimination.

If you carry on doing it, even after you've had it pointed out, then it could be said to be intentional racism, not 'accidental' or the default stuff. So could be classed as more aggressive racism..

Same principal goes for homophobia, sexism etc etc .

 

[matticus]

I'm afraid your 'rule of thumb' doesn't work.

It's entirely possible to be unintentionally racist, and discriminatory.

I'm sure in your world it doesn't work. You've made that clear on many occasions.
(I did mention discrimination. Several times. Are you actually reading the posts you respond to? Oh well, anyway ... )

But you haven't convinced me. Sorry.

 

[mudsticks]

'Ngozi didn’t even name her publicly'

I find that slightly disingenuous, she identified her as 'Lady SH' so I don't think there was a huge amount of detective work involved from those people familiar with palace employees.

Also if Sistah Space provide cultural competence training then isn't there just a teensy chance that at an institution like the Palace, this wasn't entirely unforseen and they might have had a reaction ready?

I'm not saying it's a setup or any sort of gay bed and breakfast style trap. I'm also not saying it's right that black people should have to be prepared and on their guard for this sort of thing. There's an awful lot that I'm not saying so please don't think that I am. But really, Royal Family in 'a bit racist actually' shocker? Whodathunk?

Exactly it's not right, why on earth should people have to 'prepare' for the possibility of encountering racism .

I mean people who do encounter discrimination, do do that as a default almost, because it's an everyday part of their lives..

But to suggest that someone at Sista Space should be saying.

"Look there's likely to be a good few unreconstructed old fossils at this reception so better mind your ps&qs, and expect to be talked down to, alright??"

Rather than going in there optimistically, assuming that everyone is going to be welcoming.
- Especially the people tasked with doing the 'welcoming'🙄

Surely it's up to The Palace, with vastly more resources, and duty to 'do the right thing' to check that everyone at the reception, knows how to behave themselves, and how to speak to people who might not look or be (shock horror) exactly like them.

 

[mudsticks]

I'm sure in your world it doesn't work. You've made that clear on many occasions.
(I did mention discrimination. Several times. Are you actually reading the posts you respond to? Oh well, anyway ... )

But you haven't convinced me. Sorry.

Yes I did read them.

Yes Fulani was discriminated against, by the way she was spoken to.

What is so difficult to understand??

 

[matticus]

'Ngozi didn’t even name her publicly'

I find that slightly disingenuous, she identified her as 'Lady SH' so I don't think there was a huge amount of detective work involved from those people familiar with palace employees.

Also if Sistah Space provide cultural competence training then isn't there just a teensy chance that at an institution like the Palace, this wasn't entirely unforseen and they might have had a reaction ready?

I'm not saying it's a setup or any sort of gay bed and breakfast style trap. I'm also not saying it's right that black people should have to be prepared and on their guard for this sort of thing. There's an awful lot that I'm not saying so please don't think that I am. But really, Royal Family in 'a bit racist actually' shocker? Whodathunk?

Had a reaction ready? Maybe .... Although this line from a subsequent interview could be interpreted to give weight to the idea:
"
Fulani emphasized that she took time to make sure that the Palace aide was not asking her repeatedly because she could not hear. “I did what I could to make sure that this is what it appears to be. And I have clarity, that was racism.”
"

Imagine Ngozi - given all the previous experience she has in this area - had simply cut all the crap and answered straight away with:
"Lady! I am a British national, my parents came here in the 50’s, I am of African heritage, Caribbean descent and British nationality.”
Then they might have had a nice chat, maybe talked about the event they were attending, or maybe problems faced by Caribbean families in the UK.
She shouldn't HAVE to do that, but "Lady" is 83 and not trained in these matters, and a conversation takes two...

 

[matticus]

Yes Fulani was discriminated against, by the way she was spoken to.

Do you mean she was unfairly given the chance to gain some useful publicity, that wouldn't have been afforded to a white woman? Yes, terrible discrimination.

 

[matticus]

No idea if this is true or not.....

Lady Susan Hussey, who has stepped down as one of the King’s ladies of the household after insensitive comments to a black guest at a reception, can be clumsy in her small talk.

In the early 1990s Buckingham Palace was asked at short notice to host a reception for an American delegation on the way home from a Nato summit. Members of the royal household were scrambled to fill the room and Lady Susan found herself next to a charming visitor.

“What do you do for a living?” she asked. “I’m president of the United States of America,” a slightly surprised George Bush said…

Said to be a quote from The Times.

Love it!!!

 

[mudsticks]

Do you mean she was unfairly given the chance to gain some useful publicity, that wouldn't have been afforded to a white woman? Yes, terrible discrimination.

You really think that's what happened??

That Ms Fulani went to the reception, and somehow coerced Lady Hussey to be racist towards to her on purpose.??
In order to gain publicity.?

Wow that's quite a reach.


Ms Fulani was already going there to be part of gathering to talk about combating VAWAG.

She herself has said she wanted it to be about that, and that the interaction with Lady Hussey was a big shock, and wasnt what she was after at all .

So are you calling her a liar?
Or a self publicist?
Or both?
Why not go for the double whammy?