Climate Crisis: Are we doing enough?

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stowie

Active Member
Read it again. That is not what it does. It is simply a carbon capture device that uses the heat provided by the Hydrogen powered engine to turn it into a liquid then releases it. It is NOT converting carbon dioxide into hydrogen.

I tried to read a few reports on this, and rather mystified as to the process. From best I can understand, the filter "captures" the CO2 which then is dissolved in a liquid which is "disposed of". Not really strong on details here, and the articles themselves say the filter needs changing after 20 laps (around 20 miles I guess) plus only captures 20g of CO2. It might be the start of something interesting, but that "disposing" sounds a bit ominous.

Besides, electric cars have a feature which is appealing (at least to me). They are simple. They don't require too much maintenance. Look at my diesel engine with all its gadgetry to capture various nasty stuff or minimise it and there a lot to go wrong in the average combustion engine these days. It feels that the complexity to mitigate a fundamentally dirty way to generate energy is a real problem.

Carbon sequestering would be a dream to all those companies involved around oil/gas. Nothing seems to be on the horizon that would make a meaningful contribution to CO2 sequestration and that might tell us all we need to know about how close this technology is to being a viable and effective option.
 
I tried to read a few reports on this, and rather mystified as to the process. From best I can understand, the filter "captures" the CO2 which then is dissolved in a liquid which is "disposed of". Not really strong on details here, and the articles themselves say the filter needs changing after 20 laps (around 20 miles I guess) plus only captures 20g of CO2. It might be the start of something interesting, but that "disposing" sounds a bit ominous.
What i gather the long term process is that they want it to be able to convert it into hydrogen. the prototype is not so far, and yes only 20g. The question is how fast it develops if they are at 800g in a few years time it's starting to become very interesting even if it's an disposable filter.
Besides, electric cars have a feature which is appealing (at least to me). They are simple. They don't require too much maintenance. Look at my diesel engine with all its gadgetry to capture various nasty stuff or minimise it and there a lot to go wrong in the average combustion engine these days. It feels that the complexity to mitigate a fundamentally dirty way to generate energy is a real problem.
If you look at current eletric car reviews, simplier isn't the correct word. in theory it should be but it seems it only has become more complicated. Also with nasty features as a company that can shut your car down remotely. Or the future of the subscription based model where you need to pay monthly an own nothing.

Carbon sequestering would be a dream to all those companies involved around oil/gas. Nothing seems to be on the horizon that would make a meaningful contribution to CO2 sequestration and that might tell us all we need to know about how close this technology is to being a viable and effective option.
Toyota is also subsequently looking do stop oil, as in perfect the hydrogen combustion engines so the ''they just help the oil companies frame'' is a bit outlandisch if you read a few reports on this, litterly the first linked article is the Toyota ceo explaining their new combustion engine plan and the second is a project they started with honda to get an better hydrogen combustion engine.

He simply says EV sales are despite no lack of options a very small percentage of their overal sales, so his point is apperently there is still a demand so they won't switch to EV only but instead invest in multiple alternatives that also aim to reach the same goal.
But i guess you known better then one of the biggest car companies in the world whether a option is viable or not. Really sounds convincing.
 

icowden

Legendary Member
But i guess you known better then one of the biggest car companies in the world whether a option is viable or not. Really sounds convincing.
Absolutely. Toyota really know what they are doing. After seeing their sales decline throughout the first half of 2023 due to their failure to understand or invest in the EV market - with particular sales falls in the US and China, they managed to jump to a record high in sales in August 2023 by pumping out 22% more polluting hybrids.

Sadly this clever strategy hasn't been sustainable and they saw a drop again in December 2023 and Jan 2024 despite pumping out discounted hybrids. The good news is that after sacking their chairman they now have a pure EV due out. They have created something dull and unpronounceable to really start making inroads into the EV sector.
 
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D

Deleted member 121

Guest
they managed to jump to a record high in sales in AUgust 2923 by pumping out 22% more polluting hybrids.

Well they would. Because according to Star Trek, in 2958, the Dilithium in the Milky Way Galaxy is drying up. I guess Toyota are ahead of the game once again...
 
Absolutely. Toyota really know what they are doing. After seeing their sales decline throughout the first half of 2023 due to their failure to understand or invest in the EV market - with particular sales falls in the US and China, they managed to jump to a record high in sales in August 2023 by pumping out 22% more polluting hybrids.
Ford was forced to change their EV plans due to record loses (more o that here https://www.theregister.com/2024/02/07/ford_ev_strategy/ )
VW group ''In 2023, the total Volkswagen Group all-electric vehicle sales exceeded 771,000, which is almost 35% more than in 2022, and an 8.3% share of the total volume. The top electric cars were the Volkswagen ID. 4/ID. 5 duo with over 223,000 sales.'' ( https://insideevs.com/news/704510/v... total Volkswagen,duo with over 223,000 sales.)
So not great number in general back to Toyota they have a overal growth in their EV/Hybrid and Fuel cell department interesting quote ''The automaker is banking on hybrids to help it meet increasingly strict emissions standards amid weak EV demand. Greater hybrid sales could also help the company electrify its model lineup while it ramps up its revamped EV strategy.'' ( https://www.automotivedive.com/news... 3.7 million electric,plug-in or mild hybrids. )
For the record Toyota was the first company to actually make hybrids, making the accusation that they make hybrids just to fill a gap a bit unfair. As Toyota hybrids are at least actual hybrids designed to work on those batteries, if you look for example at the Mitsubishi outlander PHEV that is an ''SUV'' with an electric motor dumped in, which you see in performance. But it does sounds a bit condictorarly that both VW and Ford have very low EV sales but Toyota needs to ramp it up.
If they would build Fuel cell charging infrastructure at the same speed as they build EV charging stations, i'm pretty sure Fuel cell would sell a bit better. It's the difference between about 2 minutes to fully charge and i think at least 30 minutes for a EV super turbo charge? (or however they call the quickest version)
Apart from that if you resell you fuel cell car it still works 10 years on where as battery cars become big chunks of waste as the batteries would be run down and replacing them would not be economical, are they really better still? i highly doubt it
 

icowden

Legendary Member
Ford was forced to change their EV plans due to record loses (more o that here https://www.theregister.com/2024/02/07/ford_ev_strategy/ )
Their EV couldn't compete with Tesla.1
VW group ''In 2023, the total Volkswagen Group all-electric vehicle sales exceeded 771,000, which is almost 35% more than in 2022, and an 8.3% share of the total volume. The top electric cars were the Volkswagen ID. 4/ID. 5 duo with over 223,000 sales.'' ( https://insideevs.com/news/704510/volkswagen-group-global-bev-sales-2023q4/#:~:text=In 2023, the total Volkswagen,duo with over 223,000 sales.)
VW were recovering from a massive supply chain issue. Also their car isn't as good as Tesla.
So not great number in general back to Toyota they have a overal growth in their EV/Hybrid and Fuel cell department interesting quote ''The automaker is banking on hybrids to help it meet increasingly strict emissions standards amid weak EV demand. Greater hybrid sales could also help the company electrify its model lineup while it ramps up its revamped EV strategy.'' ( https://www.automotivedive.com/news/toyota-annual-sales-2023-lexus-daihatsu-hino/706061/#:~:text=Toyota's sales accelerated in Q4 2023&text=sold nearly 3.7 million electric,plug-in or mild hybrids. )
They didn't have one. It took the sacking of the chairman to get an EV on the books.
For the record Toyota was the first company to actually make hybrids, making the accusation that they make hybrids just to fill a gap a bit unfair
Good job I didn't say that. I said that they deliberately increased production which shows in their manufacturing figures.

Apart from that if you resell you fuel cell car it still works 10 years on where as battery cars become big chunks of waste as the batteries would be run down and replacing them would not be economical, are they really better still? i highly doubt it
That's nonsense. There are plenty of 2011 Nissan Leafs on Auto trader which are still going strong. I had a Renault Grand Scenic from 2012 to 2022, that's 10 years. It had done 100,000 miles and was on its last legs when I sold it to webuyanycar for £2.6k. It kept developing new faults - radiator leak which couldn't be properly fixed, sticking accelerator, start stop battery failure, sticky accelerator, internal trim breaking, seat fabric collapsing and sensors failing etc. So much for ICE cars lasting forever.
Tesla's 2019 impact report showed that the majority of Model S and X cars had more than 90% battery life after 200,000 miles of driving.
Not surprisingly, the majority of manufacturers are so confident in the durability of their EV batteries that they offer a battery warranty that’s usually 100,000 miles or eight years for 70% capacity.
 
All this discussion of methods of propulsion for cars is pretty much irrelevant to the problem of climate change. Fewer cars, smaller, lighter cars, investment in alternative means of transport - these things would help.
Yes it has been discusses on and off in this topic, but i would say both are needed, and the alternative method like mjuch more cycling or lets say much more utilty cycling like what is normal in the Netherlands would be a big improvement first off for the topic where discussing here as for the overal health benefits, but like a said a few pages back, in fact we are already to late because of the ebikes, to gain maximum health benefits, we can off course still get the envoremental benefits but the issues still are that the infrastructure sucks.
And i known there are quite a few here who shut the discussion about which kind of propulsion down with ''there should be less cars'' whether you believe that to be true or not fact is there is an demand. and that won't be zero not now and not in 10 years.
 

AuroraSaab

Legendary Member
By ensuring more reasons why you don't need to use/buy them as much like cheap public transport and thriving small town centres rather than needing a car to get to a retail park or huge supermarket. It would be interesting to see how many retail parks have been built in the last 30 years.

(Edited to moan about retail parks, which I actually visit a lot but would rather not).
 
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stowie

Active Member
What i gather the long term process is that they want it to be able to convert it into hydrogen. the prototype is not so far, and yes only 20g. The question is how fast it develops if they are at 800g in a few years time it's starting to become very interesting even if it's an disposable filter.

I was somewhat mystified by this turning CO2 to H2. I did a bit of a google. The closest I found was a system to inject an electrolyte with CO2 ultimately generating electricity and H2. This looks good, but the devil is in the detail - scaling up to be a meaningful solution is yet to be done, or indeed confirmed it can be done.

This technology is similar to small scale battery technology advances which show significantly better performance than more traditional chemistries but without the ability to scale up then it is simply an interesting science experiment.

DIrect conversion of CO2 to H2 is alchemy. Using the CO2 as a reagent in another reaction is possible.

If you look at current eletric car reviews, simplier isn't the correct word. in theory it should be but it seems it only has become more complicated. Also with nasty features as a company that can shut your car down remotely. Or the future of the subscription based model where you need to pay monthly an own nothing.

The propulsion system is simpler. The complexity of the combustion engine - even ignoring the systems tacked on to try to reduce pollution - is undeniably greater than a battery motor system. The fact that cars are computers on wheels these days is more down to the additions we expect in terms of driver aids, comforts, entertainment, navigation, and everything else in the car. This is the same with combustion engines - it isn't a function of the propulsion system.

Same with "nasty features". A car could be remotely shut down no matter the propulsion system.

And the subscription model where you pay monthly and own nothing. This is called car leasing. Or renting. Or car share schemes. Already here and applies to combustion as well as electric vehicles. Besides, you say it like it is a bad thing. Car sharing schemes (eg. Zipcar), increase asset utilisation, reduce the number of cars thus reducing space for parking, and is very often significantly cheaper for the casual car user than any purchasing alternative. The rise of these schemes is not to do with propulsion system, it is a change in the way people view car ownership and - frankly - the rising cost of car prices and running costs. It is often a good thing. It allows a more sane price comparison with alternatives - the cost of use is per mile rather than a sunk cost each year whether you use it or not.

Toyota is also subsequently looking do stop oil, as in perfect the hydrogen combustion engines so the ''they just help the oil companies frame'' is a bit outlandisch if you read a few reports on this, litterly the first linked article is the Toyota ceo explaining their new combustion engine plan and the second is a project they started with honda to get an better hydrogen combustion engine.

He simply says EV sales are despite no lack of options a very small percentage of their overal sales, so his point is apperently there is still a demand so they won't switch to EV only but instead invest in multiple alternatives that also aim to reach the same goal.
But i guess you known better then one of the biggest car companies in the world whether a option is viable or not. Really sounds convincing.

Hydrogen is the darling of the fossil fuel lobby. Despite names such as blue or green hyrdrogen there is only one game in town. Grey hydrogen created by steam reforming and without CO2 sequestration (because that really isn't a thing at scale currently). Green hydrogen from electrolysis using excess electricity isn't a thing yet. Commercially it makes no sense currently.

Toyota - for whatever reason - are betting on combustion to at least a certain degree. I consider special filters that need to be replaced every few miles with a carbon sequestration scheme that appears to be little more than hand-waving to be a greenwash by a company struggling with agility. Maybe, just maybe, some of these schemes will become viable long term, but we are well into the short term in having to fix problems.


Besides as is said above, the best answer is fewer cars and fewer journeys by car.
 

icowden

Legendary Member
Besides as is said above, the best answer is fewer cars and fewer journeys by car.
I was thinking about this the other day. Someone asked on Quora whether they could get to any historic / quaint villages with traditional pubs, nice walks etc from Golders Green by train within 1 hours travel.

At present probably the best you could do is Tring or St Albans, and it struck me that one of the issues now with Trains is that you can only go to major towns and cities. Prior to Beeching you could travel to much smaller towns and villages. Of course it would be possible to revers some of the beeching cuts where land is still available etc, but obviously it would require massive investment and subsidy, which in turn requires paying more tax or finding more tax money from somewhere...

For the same reason those ads from GWR using the Famous Five really annoy me. I suspect that if Julian, Anne, George and Dick turned up with 4 bicycles and a dog, they'd have great difficulty getting on the train in the first place and then just end up in a city centre and not the advertised countryside.
 
D

Deleted member 121

Guest
I was thinking about this the other day. Someone asked on Quora whether they could get to any historic / quaint villages with traditional pubs, nice walks etc from Golders Green by train within 1 hours travel.

At present probably the best you could do is Tring or St Albans, and it struck me that one of the issues now with Trains is that you can only go to major towns and cities. Prior to Beeching you could travel to much smaller towns and villages. Of course it would be possible to revers some of the beeching cuts where land is still available etc, but obviously it would require massive investment and subsidy, which in turn requires paying more tax or finding more tax money from somewhere...

For the same reason those ads from GWR using the Famous Five really annoy me. I suspect that if Julian, Anne, George and Dick turned up with 4 bicycles and a dog, they'd have great difficulty getting on the train in the first place and then just end up in a city centre and not the advertised countryside.

The biggest barrier to people using cars less is their attitudes. I'm not a lunatic and understand people need cars for some tasks. Cars are an incredibly useful resource but all it takes is a moment outside a school gate or a small time observing the local shops to realise many people can't be arsed to walk, cycle, hop, gambole whatever. The idea of using cars less = massive tax increases and subsidy doesn't compute into my thick skull. If you can walk, walk... If you can cycle, cycle etc etc.
 
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