Climate Crisis: Are we doing enough?

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Psamathe

Über Member
I still feel we are not exploring tidal power adequately, not as "the answer" but as a contributory supply. Not so keen on barrages as they do somewhat devastate the environment, more turbines in tidal flows. It's very reliable (as in doesn't vary throughout year or with weather), peak generation times offset around the country. I appreciate it has challenges and will only be a contributor but we have a lot of coastline.

Ian
 

First Aspect

Well-Known Member
I still feel we are not exploring tidal power adequately, not as "the answer" but as a contributory supply. Not so keen on barrages as they do somewhat devastate the environment, more turbines in tidal flows. It's very reliable (as in doesn't vary throughout year or with weather), peak generation times offset around the country. I appreciate it has challenges and will only be a contributor but we have a lot of coastline.

Ian

There is insufficient capacity for it to be anything other than a minor contribution to an energy mix. The industry itself estimates it could account for 11% of demand.

Tidal lagoons are a potential additional option, but you need to decide which estuaries to wreck and how much of them to preserve for future generations.
 
I still feel we are not exploring tidal power adequately, not as "the answer" but as a contributory supply. Not so keen on barrages as they do somewhat devastate the environment, more turbines in tidal flows. It's very reliable (as in doesn't vary throughout year or with weather), peak generation times offset around the country. I appreciate it has challenges and will only be a contributor but we have a lot of coastline.

Ian

They are explored. They just don't tend to work that well at the moment and are very expensive. That said, offshore wind was once expensive and difficult.
 

First Aspect

Well-Known Member
They are explored. They just don't tend to work that well at the moment and are very expensive. That said, offshore wind was once expensive and difficult.

The main issues are that the working parts go under water in a necessarily quite harsh marine environment. So they need to be engineered to withstand that at all. The cost also reflects high maintenance requirements.

I cannot see it ever being cheap energy as such, but I can the cost being justified by the value that reliability adds.

It is also, needless to say, not entirely "on demand" and it's peak capacity does not necessarily reflect half time in the cup final.
 

Mad Doug Biker

Just plodding along as always.
This sums up a lot which is still very wrong about the situation, metaphorically or otherwise:
 

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Psamathe

Über Member
There is insufficient capacity for it to be anything other than a minor contribution to an energy mix. The industry itself estimates it could account for 11% of demand.
I'd view 11% of reliable completely predictable genersation a worthwhile contribution.

Plus developing it would make UK a "world leader" in the technology (given that we are really just "users" of solar, wind, nuclear, etc.). Politicians keep talking about UK taking leadership and tidal might be that opportunity?

Ian
 

First Aspect

Well-Known Member
I'd view 11% of reliable completely predictable genersation a worthwhile contribution.

Plus developing it would make UK a "world leader" in the technology (given that we are really just "users" of solar, wind, nuclear, etc.). Politicians keep talking about UK taking leadership and tidal might be that opportunity?

Ian
Sure, but demand is set to double and that current 11% will be a grossly optimistic estimate based on exploiting the resource fully. Technology may enable more resource to be economically exploited over time, but (and this is just an opinion) it still looks like mid single digit % to me.

Probably worth doing to an extent, but not a silver bullet to plug the holes in renewables output from wind and solar.
 
I'd view 11% of reliable completely predictable genersation a worthwhile contribution.

Plus developing it would make UK a "world leader" in the technology (given that we are really just "users" of solar, wind, nuclear, etc.). Politicians keep talking about UK taking leadership and tidal might be that opportunity?

Ian

The UK is a world leader in many aspects of offshore wind as well as the finance of all forms of renewable energy.
 
That wouldn't be my conclusion. Those subject matters don't really come up. In any case, your latter idea doesn't work due to the following:
1. Solar generation is generally at a useful time of day when there is demand, so it is most likely going to be sold to the grid
Hence why converting it on moments whee there is a lower demand than supply would e better then having to sell it at that point as free market dictates that if the supply is higher then the demand it's gonna cost ya. If you then can store it we would have an backup for if there is no/low supply but i higher demand.
2. No one is going to spend all the capital on an electrolyser to only use it 10% of the time as would be the case with solar
Storing liquid hydrogen is much easier then building giant battery storage and it has multiple uses. it's in a way no different than the giant terminals storing oil.
There are parts in the USA (long before Trump) where they are doing this already and that's privately funded. where does the 10% come from? problem is not amount of power generated but storing it, Solar whether it are EV panels or wheter it is wind both have peaks at random so if you can store that energy even if conversing that energy takes some energy is still a win. as otherwise they have to swtich of wind turbines at some point.



3. People tend to heat their homes in the winter whereas solar is at its peak in the summer, so you would require a vast amount of storage which isn't that straightforward. It also can't be used purely for heating and has to be mixed into gas.
Hence my point above about storing liquid hydrogen. That itcan only be mixed with gas is not true at all, the correct phrasing is that it can be mixed with gas with as direct result less polution and no noticeable change to the end user.
If the boiler however is replaced with an boiler that runs on liquid hydrogen, it will run on liquid hydrogen only.


4. Even if you ditch the heating idea, the people that drive the tiny number of hydrogen power cars will require year round fuel, so you still need lots of storage.
Not more then you need for petrol diesel or LPG less space than all those recharging stations, but there is an other aspect,two actually despite and enormous los on engine power it is still possible to convent an ice powered vehicle to run on hydrogen, the more practical is hydrogen electric which is less effective as battery electric but on the other hand is fueled in an similar way as a ice car. That is important because if we look at the sales figures we see electric cars saes are actually declining especially if we take hybrid electric out of the numbers. (as they lead the current number that imply to see an grow) more intresting is however that Mckinsey has done and research and came to the conclusion that car buyers who ditch their EV do so not because they drive bad or something but mainly because of either range anxiety or bad experiences(not) being able to charge their vehicles.




5. To make liquid hydrogen, the temperature needs to be incredibly low, so it's not really viable. Instead it needs to be turned into ammonia.
6. It's not a very efficient way of storing energy if the plan is to convert it back to electricity.
It is for the Sheel stations who sell in in the us, it is for the windfarms in the US who convert their eletricty into liquid hydrogen, both have been started with goverment funding but are now private programs, so it has to be viable otherwise it would have been killed off that's how the private market works.
 
These days it's really easy to just ask Copilot stuff if you don't know about a subject.

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Storing and transporting liquid hydrogen presents significant technical challenges due to its unique properties.

Storage Challenges

  • Extreme Cryogenic Requirements – Liquid hydrogen must be maintained at -253°C (-423°F), requiring specialized cryogenic tanks with high-performance insulation to minimize evaporation losses.
  • Boil-Off Losses – Even with advanced insulation, hydrogen slowly warms up and evaporates, leading to boil-off gas that must be vented or captured for reuse.
  • Material Compatibility – Hydrogen can embrittle metals over time, requiring specialized materials to prevent cracks or leaks in storage tanks and pipelines.

Transportation Challenges

  • Large Volume Requirement – Since hydrogen has a low energy density per unit volume, it requires bulky tanks compared to traditional fuels, increasing transport logistics costs.
  • High Pressure Alternative – If transported as compressed gas instead of liquid, it requires pressures exceeding 700 bar, adding further safety concerns.
  • Infrastructure Limitations – Cryogenic transport systems are not widely available, and building pipelines for hydrogen distribution is expensive and technologically demanding.

Mitigating These Issues

Efforts are underway to improve hydrogen storage and transport, including the development of solid-state hydrogen carriers or ammonia-based solutions, which could simplify handling and distribution.
 

First Aspect

Well-Known Member
You could come up with a list of issues for petroleum and methane also. And have a Google about ammonia, PP. It's not terribly nice stuff. And if you think diesel is bad for NOx emissions if you set it alight....Also consider the distinction between mass and volumetric energy density.

Regardless of the technical challenges of hydrogen, they've been surmounted for decades, in broad terms.

It's even possible to purchase a hydrogen powered car that does not use ammonia. Airbus are actively looking at it for smaller aircraft.

Tell you what, ditch the scientists and engineers, let the market decide.
 
You could come up with a list of issues for petroleum and methane also. And have a Google about ammonia, PP. It's not terribly nice stuff. And if you think diesel is bad for NOx emissions if you set it alight....Also consider the distinction between mass and volumetric energy density.

Regardless of the technical challenges of hydrogen, they've been surmounted for decades, in broad terms.

It's even possible to purchase a hydrogen powered car that does not use ammonia. Airbus are actively looking at it for smaller aircraft.

Tell you what, ditch the scientists and engineers, let the market decide.

Do you have a point?

The market did decide and chose EV cars.
 
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