Dave Chappelle vs the Woke

[icowden]

I saw a news article the other day about comedian Dave Chappelle and outrage from the Trans community that Netflix is hosting his latest stand-up special.
A good summary from the LGBTQ+ angle is here:-

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2021/10/netflix-gaslighting-dave-chappelle-transphobia

A slightly more balanced article is here:
https://tvline.com/2021/10/11/dave-chappelle-netflix-controversy-explained-the-closer-transphobia/

Now the article is all well and good, except that the author doesn't actually seem to have watched it. I love comedy, and I was interested enough to *actually* watch it. I can see why they hate it, but I can also see why it shouldn't be pulled or "cancelled". The article talks about Chappelle's embracing of "TERF ideology" amongst other things.

Now there are a lot of near to the knuckle jokes in there, and some jokes that very clearly make his position ("Every person on this earth has come from between the legs of a woman"). But he also talks very movingly about his friendship with Daphne Dorman a Trans Comedian. Above all, what comes across is his intense dislike of people who shut down debate.

The Vanity Fair article talks about him being a TERF, but seemingly missed out on a section where he talks about access to bathrooms and jokes about whether a Trans woman is really "safer" using a urinal than a ladies bathroom. So Dave doesn't have a problem with Trans and specifically says that he doesn't hate Trans people. His jokes can be very cutting, with stereotypes of gay blacks ("that 80s surprised look") for example and his recurring "Space Jews" gags; but the only "hatred" that seems to come across is his central argument that whilst gay rights have progressed hugely in a couple of decades black rights haven't progressed much in a hundred years ("maybe we should have tried booty shorts and baby oil").

My own thoughts are that any movement that shuts down discussion and "cancels" any attempt to have discussion is as bad as that which they are trying to shut down. If you don't like edgy comedy, then Chappelle isn't for you. I'm not sure he should be banned though.

That I do find alarming.

I am interested to see what my fellow NACA members think...

 

[Bromptonaut]

I'd need to see the programme.

If it's some edgy jokes about gender and sex that are merely bad taste then that's one thing.

If he's personally of the 'bathroom as at birth' tendency and that's the message of his comedy then another thing altogether.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I haven't seen it but I understand that he was aiming to attack American white male privilege. ie. It took 200 years for black Americans to be accepted as full human beings; it took ten years for white men to be accepted as women.

 

[icowden]

If it's some edgy jokes about gender and sex that are merely bad taste then that's one thing.
If he's personally of the 'bathroom as at birth' tendency and that's the message of his comedy then another thing altogether.

That's the strange bit. The Trans community seem to have jumped at the opportunity to take offence at the offensive jokes without understanding or awareness of the context or the message. So yes, he compares Trans lady parts to vegetarian meat, for example - but he also has the sequence I mentioned above where he makes fun of the "bathroom" lobby pointing out that a Trans woman using a urinal is hardly "safer" using the men's room.

The upset seems to be at things like deliberate misgendering, support for JK Rowling etc, without the realisation that he is provoking largely to get a rise. His closing statement along the lines of "I hope to be alive when her (Daphne) daughter is 21 to hand over her Trust fund and I will tell her "I knew your father and he was a fine upstanding woman".

Ultimately I guess the question is whether the Trans community is correct and that this is "spreading hatred" and causing attacks on Trans people, or whether it isn't. Personally I don't think TV comedy incites violence any more than action movies etc.

 

[Deleted member 28]

I watched a few minutes of one of his shows and he just seems like a modern Eddie Murphy to me?

Black fella taking the p*ss out of White people, didn't see any trans gender jokes but what's the difference between the 2 'targets' anyway?

 

[Pale Rider]

Not for the first time in an LBC on the QT or whatever discussion I understand barely a word.

So this is my equivalent post to say 'I don't have a television'.

 

[AuroraSaab]

It's on Netflix, Paley, so most of us won't be able to watch it. Thus we must do our for or against posturing and umbrage taking second hand, based on what others interpret it as having said. Including me; I've only seen it discussed, not seen the actual show.

 

[Pale Rider]

Thus we must do our for or against posturing and umbrage taking second hand,

That wouldn't normally stop me but this one really is 'all Greek to me'.

 

[mudsticks]

That wouldn't normally stop me but this one really is 'all Greek to me'.

Seriously ?

I thought you considered yourself a little 'brighter than the average bear'

When it came to matters of words and their interpretation.

Or that's how your posts, which are often condemning others for their supposed stupidity, come across.

It's on Netflix, Paley, so most of us won't be able to watch it. Thus we must do our for or against posturing and umbrage taking second hand, based on what others interpret it as having said. Including me; I've only seen it discussed, not seen the actual show.

It's on a channel that many of us don't have access to

Therefore we must make up our minds and take our positions in favour or against, not through having seen it for ourselves, but only through second hand reportage ..

You're welcome 👍🏼

 

[Bromptonaut]

A Netflix subscription is not ridiculously expensive, £6/month?.

Worth it for a bit just to watch The Crown.

 

[mudsticks]

£6 a month!!!

But then I'd have to forgoe two takeout soy cappuccinos!!

I've still got a lot to learn about the whole trans issue, but I'm making some progress.

I can totally see how the whole anti woke brigade are using it as a stick to beat anyone they fancy.

And that there are some already marginalised women now feeling even more marginalised, as a result of the trans issue.

I'd say to them, beware false allies though..


In addition to understanding the 'joke' that black people are still struggling to get full recognition of their rights, whilst the transpeople seem to have got theirs very quickly .

I'd add that large tracts of womankind are in a similar position too.

There would likely be far less fear around the trans issue if so many women didn't quite legitimately feel the need for 'safe spaces' away from men, in the first place .

Further opportunities for divisiveness abound course.

 

[FishFright]

£6 a month!!!

But then I'd have to forgoe two takeout soy cappuccinos!!

I've still got a lot to learn about the whole trans issue, but I'm making some progress.

I can totally see how the whole anti woke brigade are using it as a stick to beat anyone they fancy.

And that there are some already marginalised women now feeling even more marginalised, as a result of the trans issue.

I'd say to them, beware false allies though..


In addition to understanding the 'joke' that black people are still struggling to get full recognition of their rights, whilst the transpeople seem to have got theirs very quickly .

I'd add that large tracts of womankind are in a similar position too.

There would likely be far less fear around the trans issue if so many women didn't quite legitimately feel the need for 'safe spaces' away from men, in the first place .

Further opportunities for divisiveness abound course.

One of my closest friends went through the transition and as much as I love her to bits even after 20 years of friendship I have to say I can never really understand her journey.
But I do know it was never really a choice for her to do otherwise and it's made me a more understanding and well rounded person to be her friend.

 

[mudsticks]

One of closest friends went through the transition and as much as I love her to bits even after 20 years of friendship I have to say I can never really understand her journey.
But I do know it was never really a choice for her to do otherwise and it's made me a more understanding and well rounded person to be her friend.

I too have a few people in my circle who are or have gone through transitioning.

And close friends with children the same.

Of course we can't fully understand or empathise 100% as we are not them , but we can try to imagine.

For instance I was born a female bodied woman, and have never felt anything other than that, nor ever wanted to be a man, or be male bodied etc etc

It just wouldn't feel right for me.

However I've spend most of my work (and leisure) life doing trad male things.

Operating heavy machinery, doing muscular and often dirty manual labour.

Running businesses, being 'in charge' .

Fixing and making things, bashing bits of metal together.
Going on sort of gnarly trips and expeditions, for my recreation.

All things that would once have been considered 'tomboyish'

But I've done all those things as a woman, feeling like, and being a woman, quite happy in my female sexed body.
.

So if I were to feel so much like I was a woman, but had been born into a male sexed body, I guess I would not feel 'at home' or comfortable in my body until I'd somehow become a woman in a woman's body.

That's my interpretation, and attempt to understand it all anyhow.

Probs used the wrong terms at some point in all that, but not in bad faith , anyhow

 

[Bromptonaut]

One of my closest friends went through the transition and as much as I love her to bits even after 20 years of friendship I have to say I can never really understand her journey.
But I do know it was never really a choice for her to do otherwise and it's made me a more understanding and well rounded person to be her friend.

I had a similar experience - I may have related it before.

Working for a UK Government Quango in 2003 we had a bloke join the Board, a retired Senior Civil Servant nominated by Ministers.

Later in the decade they announced they were transitioning to female. He changed names and became she, including full surgery.

Carried it of reasonably well although there was an element of Alastair Sim as the Head of St Trinians.

Like you I cannot begin to understand why but apparently he'd been dysphoric all his life but without any possibility of an outlet in the sixties/seventies he married conventionally and had a family.

 

[icowden]

I've still got a lot to learn about the whole trans issue, but I'm making some progress.
I can totally see how the whole anti woke brigade are using it as a stick to beat anyone they fancy.
And that there are some already marginalised women now feeling even more marginalised, as a result of the trans issue.

And I think that's the problem. Where do you draw the line between supporting Trans rights and marginalising women even more? One of Chappelle's points in a previous special, apparently, is that

He then goes on to imagine what would happen if LeBron James “changed his gender,” picturing the Lakers forward joining the WNBA “where he will score 840 points a game.”

In this recent special he points out that within 6 months of Bruce Jenner transitioning to Caitlyn Jenner, she had won "Woman of the Year" from Glamour Magazine, which he feels is marginalising women rather than celebrating Trans.

Unfortunately every person who tries to open up a discussion about Womens rights and Trans rights seems to immediately be categorised as a "hater" or a "TERF" (see JK Rowling for more details). It now seems to be a hate crime not to call a Trans woman a woman and confer every single right that a woman has upon that person. That seems to be the point that we have reached in society.

Chappelle is disgruntled about this and feels that maybe more important issues exist such as Da Baby killing a man and it not affecting his career in any way, whilst if you don't say the right thing about Trans issues your career can be ended.

It's an interesting position, but as with all comedy - if you don't like a comedian, don't go and see them.