F*ck the Tories: a Thread Dedicated to Suella Braverman

[Xipe Totec]

And yet still no answer to WHY this term is necessary when referring to gender?

Do people really need reminding what sex someone was at birth?

I don't think anyone said it was 'necessary'. However, it's a word, it exists, it is the nature of language and vocabulary to expand, for new words to be coined and for existing words to be used in new and different ways. This is completely normal and good, has been happening since the dawn of verbal communication and is why the English language is held to be the most expressive, diverse and rich on the planet.

More to the point though - why does it seem to upset you so much? Unless the use of a tiny, three-letter word is not really the thing that bothers you about this subject.

 

[Mugshot]

You probably don't need to worry about it, at all.

Which was the standard response from young shep about Brexit, before it started affecting everyone of course.
It doesn’t affect you, so why are you going on about it?

 

[FishFright]

I just used a random word generator to pick a word with its definition. The word was 'bore' meaning the tidal flow up an estuary. I honestly can't remember the last time I used that word. I don't think I've ever used it in a conversation down the pub. Does it really need to exist?

The Severn Bore used to be "and finally" news story every year .

 

[winjim]

So, Suella Braverman, the Attorney General. This is a long read but I found it well worth the effort, hence the share.

https://davidallengreen.com/2022/06...egal-advice-on-the-northern-ireland-protocol/

Black is white, up is down, male is female, on topic is off topic.

 

[newfhouse]

Black is white, up is down, male is female, on topic is off topic.

You’re everywhere and nowhere baby, that’s where you’re at.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Just a thought, but I suspect that the forced transition and the sexual abuse might have done more to push him over the edge than did the naming of a concept.

The decision to raise him as a girl has a lot to do with gender identity of a more traditional kind, does it not? The conviction that, without a penis, he could not be a man?

I agree it was the forced transition that resulted in mental health issues. As I understand it, Money persuaded the parents to let him impose hormone therapy and stereotypical girls clothes etc. to prove his theory that the sense of self was divorced from the body, and that female stereotypes of dress, hair cuts, toys, and use of hormones etc., in a child would create an adult woman if imposed early enough. Otherwise David would have been raised as a boy with a damaged penis, rather than being forced through further surgical procedures in an attempt to replicate a girls body.

Surely it shows you can't escape your sexed body, regardless of how you dress and what hormones you take.

 

[mudsticks]

Which was the standard response from young shep about Brexit, before it started affecting everyone of course.
It doesn’t affect you, so why are you going on about it?

For someone who claims to care so very little for anyone, or anything outside of his own narrow sphere of experience.

Our Shep actually dedicates quite a lot of time telling people who are outside of his narrow circle of experience, just how little he cares.

I'm not certain from where this persistent compulsion to tell everyone 'i don't care' arises.

But then so much of human behaviour is a bit mysterious isn't it ??

 

[mudsticks]

I agree it was the forced transition that resulted in mental health issues. As I understand it, Money persuaded the parents to let him impose hormone therapy and stereotypical girls clothes etc. to prove his theory that the sense of self was divorced from the body, and that female stereotypes of dress, hair cuts, toys, and use of hormones etc., in a child would create an adult woman if imposed early enough. Otherwise David would have been raised as a boy with a damaged penis, rather than being forced through further surgical procedures in an attempt to replicate a girls body.

Surely it shows you can't escape your sexed body, regardless of how you dress and what hormones you take.

Sounds like child abuse at the hands of an adult 'experimenting' on a child trying to prove or disprove a point.

I don't think it shows or proves anything beyond some adults will exploit children to further their own warped ends.

The plot of The Wasp Factory springs to mind, for some reason.

 

[winjim]

Hans Asperger gave kids over to the Nazis for experimentation and euthanasia. That doesn't mean that autism isn't real.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Of course autism is real. Approximately one third of children and young people referred to UK gender identity services have autism or other types of neurodiversity. Autistic children are very over represented in the referrals to gender clinics, as are teenage girls, as are same sex attracted girls. It's been highlighted in the interim Cass Report as a concern.

I assume you mean that Money being unable to reproduce his theory in real life with a human subject doesn't mean gender identity doesn't exist. True, but that's like saying people feeling like they have a soul is proof of souls existing, despite noone producing evidence for it.

 

[All uphill]

For someone who claims to care so very little for anyone, or anything outside of his own narrow sphere of experience.

Our Shep actually dedicates quite a lot of time telling people who are outside of his narrow circle of experience, just how little he cares.

I'm not certain from where this persistent compulsion to tell everyone 'i don't care' arises.

But then so much of human behaviour is a bit mysterious isn't it ??

"I don't care!"

Always a lie, otherwise it wouldn't be said. In my opinion, of course.

 

[winjim]

Of course autism is real. Approximately one third of children and young people referred to UK gender identity services have autism or other types of neurodiversity. Autistic children are very over represented in the referrals to gender clinics, as are teenage girls, as are same sex attracted girls. It's been highlighted in the interim Cass Report as a concern.

I assume you mean that Money being unable to reproduce his theory in real life with a human subject doesn't mean gender identity doesn't exist. True, but that's like saying people feeling like they have a soul is proof of souls existing, despite noone producing evidence for it.

No, that's not what I mean.

 

[Unkraut]

Despite doing lots of things that are 'trad male' ...

Having had time to read more lately, including English history, I think this 'trad' male/female thing is a more recent invention, say 200 years or so. The dainty female was a late Victorian thing amongst the middle or upper classes.

Before that say from about 1300 to the industrial revolution a woman would be expected to be able to carry on her husband's occupation, including being a blacksmith or armourer, in case he were called up to fight in a war. Life was a lot harder and worrying about 'roles' not top of the agenda. Traditionally, everybody had to muck in to survive unless you owned the local castle.

Surely it shows you can't escape your sexed body, regardless of how you dress and what hormones you take.

This was visibly demonstrated to me last Monday at a confirmation service where I musicianed with a small band (as in brass). 'James' is now 'Kate', and this is the first time I had seen him after learning of this supposed transition a few months ago. He simply doesn't look like a girl, and I doubt cosmetic surgery is ever likely to change this. The candidates were all girls, and the difference was obvious. I think the pretence is cruel. I don't know the background to this, there may be a genuine medical condition underlying it, but this is almost certainly not the way to deal with it, and my conscience will not let me 'affirm' it, particularly in the context of last Monday. It's not loving in the agape sense of the term.

I think you are absolutely right to argue against men identifying as women from being allowed to participate in - and ruin - women's sports. Even if you want to argue about gender and roles, and I have a fairly laid back view of roles, physically nothing really changes. The idea of transitioning imo is a myth, based on a lie. I find it astonishing when feminists, of all people, argue in favour of it when it comea to men supposedly transitioning.

 

[mudsticks]

Having had time to read more lately, including English history, I think this 'trad' male/female thing is a more recent invention, say 200 years or so. The dainty female was a late Victorian thing amongst the middle or upper classes.

Before that say from about 1300 to the industrial revolution a woman would be expected to be able to carry on her husband's occupation, including being a blacksmith or armourer, in case he were called up to fight in a war. Life was a lot harder and worrying about 'roles' not top of the agenda. Traditionally, everybody had to muck in to survive unless you owned the local castle.

This was visibly demonstrated to me last Monday at a confirmation service where I musicianed with a small band (as in brass). 'James' is now 'Kate', and this is the first time I had seen him after learning of this supposed transition a few months ago. He simply doesn't look like a girl, and I doubt cosmetic surgery is ever likely to change this. The candidates were all girls, and the difference was obvious. I think the pretence is cruel. I don't know the background to this, there may be a genuine medical condition underlying it, but this is almost certainly not the way to deal with it, and my conscience will not let me 'affirm' it, particularly in the context of last Monday. It's not loving in the agape sense of the term.

I think you are absolutely right to argue against men identifying as women from being allowed to participate in - and ruin - women's sports. Even if you want to argue about gender and roles, and I have a fairly laid back view of roles, physically nothing really changes. The idea of transitioning imo is a myth, based on a lie. I find it astonishing when feminists, of all people, argue in favour of it when it comea to men supposedly transitioning.

Yes I'm very aware of segregated male female roles being only a recent invention, of mainly the industrial revolution era .
It's kind of one of my specialist subjects..

My point was that perceiving oneself as one gender or another is not about performing roles, being into (recently) trad gender interests, or even how you present visually .

I don't fall into a lot of the 'trad' gender tropes , but I still very much identify as 'woman' .

Others born into a gender, very strongly don't identify themselves as that gender.
I respect that.

It goes far deeper than roles, or clothes or whatever .

Just because you don't think a musician you saw in a band wasnt a very 'convincing' girl, doesn't make her identity any less valid or real .

I have several trans and non binary freinds, and acquaintances, they're highly intelligent, educated, and dare I say it, far more switched on to the realities of the world than many on here.

 

[newfhouse]

This was visibly demonstrated to me last Monday at a confirmation service where I musicianed with a small band (as in brass). 'James' is now 'Kate', and this is the first time I had seen him after learning of this supposed transition a few months ago. He simply doesn't look like a girl, and I doubt cosmetic surgery is ever likely to change this. The candidates were all girls, and the difference was obvious.

Don’t be an peanut. It’s not her responsibility to convince you that she looks like your idea of a girl.