F*ck the Tories: a Thread Dedicated to Suella Braverman

[winjim]

Would you?

No, not really.

 

[AuroraSaab]

But you'd also welcome him in the women's, I guess, should he prefer to change there - which seems possible, as you say he 'leans toward the gender critical side of things'? Do you think everybody would? I'm just trying to unpick it, because you said it was simple but it doesn't seem especially simple to me.

Yes, I would welcome Buck in the men's as he (happy to use preferred pronouns out of politeness) has every right to be there and is no safeguarding risk. I don't think every woman would but women are far more accomodating of women who don't perform femininity than men are of men who do perform it. . The answer of course is a unisex third space but that's unacceptable to trans activists.

 

[theclaud]

Bit surprised but not bothered when they are informed Buck is male, I would imagine. I'm not aware of any complaints about transmen continuing to play in women's sports teams. They aren't allowed testosterone though. They seem reluctant to switch to the men's category funnily enough and their sports happily accept them. I think most men would accept transwomen in their sports. In fact Emily Bridges was on the podium with 3 team mates winning a medal only a few weeks ago.

Yes, I would think even a maintenance dose of testosterone would be in excess of that allowed for women. Transwomen have to lower their testosterone to a certain level to compete, but it's still way above what women are allowed to have. And it doesn't negate the other residual physical advantages.

IIRC what Bridges was pissed off about, not unreasonably in my view, was the shifting goalposts. As in there were rules and she met them, whether they were good rules or not. I'm probably as uneasy as you are about testosterone as a proxy for gender/sex in this situation, and it's not just trans women who it affects - Caster Semenya is effectively forced to medicate to lower her naturally-occurring testosterone, as I think we have discussed before. As I recall, it didn't seem to bother Sharron Davies if she had to chuck Semenya under the bus.

 

[theclaud]

Yes, I would welcome Buck in the men's as he (happy to use preferred pronouns out of politeness) has every right to be there and is no safeguarding risk. I don't think every woman would but women are far more accomodating of women who don't perform femininity than men are of men who do perform it. . The answer of course is a unisex third space but that's unacceptable to trans activists.

Most women, I suspect, would read Buck as a man. To say that his outward appearance doesn't perform femininity is something of an understatement. But isn't the toilet/changing room problem supposed to be that women can't tell who is and isn't a threat, so you have to segregate by sex to be on the safe side? Which means, again, that if you are to put to bed all the fears you have awakened, you need to be able to read sex reliably by appearance. In case it's not clear, I think that the production of fear in everyday situations is detrimental to women.

 

[icowden]

Caster Semenya is effectively forced to medicate to lower her naturally-occurring testosterone, as I think we have discussed before. As I recall, it didn't seem to bother Sharron Davies if she had to chuck Semenya under the bus.

That's because Caster Semenya is intersex and there is quite some argument as to whether she should be allowed to compete in the women's categories. Semenya was raised as female and identifies as such, but biologically has XY chromosomes, she is believed to have internal testes and lack a womb or ovaries — characteristics we don’t traditionally associate with females, but with Males.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I do have some sympathy for Emily Bridges. At 22 it's not easy ending up being the person at the centre of such a discussion. My feeling is that she should never have been put in this position by British Cycling, nor should other trans athletes in their respective sports. But the women they compete against have been massively let down too, by sports organisations who changed the regulations under pressure from activists instead of following the science.

The IOC changed their regs based on pressure from inclusivity activists touting fairly dubious research based on around 10 transwomen athletes. I think this encouraged other sports to follow suit.

I don't think anybody couldn't be sympathetic to Semenya and the other dsd athletes. It's a medical condition and asking them to take drugs to lower their testosterone seems intuitively wrong. Their condition gives them an unfair advantage but again, the regs are a mess, with different testosterone levels for different track events.

 

[theclaud]

That's because Caster Semenya is intersex and there is quite some argument as to whether she should be allowed to compete in the women's categories. Semenya was raised as female and identifies as such, but biologically has XY chromosomes, she is believed to have internal testes and lack a womb or ovaries — characteristics we don’t traditionally associate with females, but with Males.

I'm across the issues. The point I'm trying to make is that perhaps the rules should aim adapt to the reality of the athlete's lives and bodies, rather than forcibly medicating them into categories and then pretending that the distinctions are natural and inevitable?

 

[Unkraut]

It’s not her responsibility to convince you that she looks like your idea of a girl.

The point is that if he wants to 'transition' to being a woman, when you put him alongside a real woman the difference is obvious. It can't be done, at least on the physical level when it comes to sports this ought to be recognised. The sight of him was pathetic in the deepest sense of the word.

Your criticism is in part justified, however. It's not so much the outward appearance that counts but what is going on in the inside. I had some inkling this was in the offing a while back (the individual concerned used to play bass in the band, got on very well with him) and now wish I had said something. I'm not a member of that church and would never become one, but someone needs to tell him that Christianity and what he is doing are mutually incompatible. Mrs Pastor is never going to, and maybe I should or maybe not, perhaps it is none of my business, not my job. If you see someone doing something harmful to their wellbeing, it isn't very loving not to say something. He does not know that it will cost him his life.

who are you to judge what anyone "should" look like ?

The spiritual man judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. I think I have been around long enough to discern delusion when I come across it. That is more than likely what is going on here, but if it turned out not to be I would change my mind.

 

[theclaud]

Why not just type twat or wanker or arsehole? It is much clearer what you mean if you do that

Wanker.

 

[AuroraSaab]

But isn't the toilet/changing room problem supposed to be that women can't tell who is and isn't a threat, so you have to segregate by sex to be on the safe side? Which means, again, that if you are to put to bed all the fears you have awakened, you need to be able to read sex reliably by appearance. In case it's not clear, I think that the production of fear in everyday situations is detrimental to women.

I forgot to respond to this earlier. We know who the threat is - it's men, regardless of how they are dressed and how they identify. It's not just about toilets though. It's about domestic violence refuges, prisons, hospital wards, being able to choose a female carer in a care home etc. And it's not just about safety, it's about dignity and privacy and women feeling comfortable knowing they are in a single sex space.

Are there any situations in which you think sex should count more than how someone chooses to identify?

 

[theclaud]

I forgot to respond to this earlier. We know who the threat is - it's men, regardless of how they are dressed and how they identify. It's not just about toilets though. It's about domestic violence refuges, prisons, hospital wards, being able to choose a female carer in a care home etc. And it's not just about safety, it's about dignity and privacy and women feeling comfortable knowing they are in a single sex space.

Are there any situations in which you think sex should count more than how someone chooses to identify?

Plenty. You'd already know that if you'd stopped steamrollering through every thread on the subject and paused to listen. I have plenty of opinions which are at odds with LGBT+ orthodoxy, and I can barely look at the graphic design car-crash that is the Progress Pride flag. Unfortunately it stopped being a good-faith discussion about the Equality Act (or the way that gender is constructed and performed) and became a moral panic some time ago, and I'm not on board for that. Feminist analysis has left the 'GC' building - these people are scared of Judith Butler and their hero is JK farking Rowling. Do you work with any young people, out of interest?

 

[qigong chimp]

IIRC what Bridges was pissed off about, not unreasonably in my view, was the shifting goalposts.

"... transitioning goalposts", surely? Ed.

 

[Deleted member 49]

The spiritual man judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. I think I have been around long enough to discern delusion when I come across it. That is more than likely what is going on here, but if it turned out not to be I would change my mind.

Yea and I had a imaginary friend as a kid....it's not for you to judge is it ?

 

[mudsticks]

The point is that if he wants to 'transition' to being a woman, when you put him alongside a real woman the difference is obvious. It can't be done, at least on the physical level when it comes to sports this ought to be recognised. The sight of him was pathetic in the deepest sense of the word.

Your criticism is in part justified, however. It's not so much the outward appearance that counts but what is going on in the inside. I had some inkling this was in the offing a while back (the individual concerned used to play bass in the band, got on very well with him) and now wish I had said something. I'm not a member of that church and would never become one, but someone needs to tell him that Christianity and what he is doing are mutually incompatible. Mrs Pastor is never going to, and maybe I should or maybe not, perhaps it is none of my business, not my job. If you see someone doing something harmful to their wellbeing, it isn't very loving not to say something. He does not know that it will cost him his life.

The spiritual man judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. I think I have been around long enough to discern delusion when I come across it. That is more than likely what is going on here, but if it turned out not to be I would change my mind.

"Do you see a man who is wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him."

As someone who is also on a spiritual path, albeit a slightly differently aligned one, I'd say that age doesn't necessarily lead to any greater wisdom, or insight

Nor qualification to judge how others lead their lives.

Without keen self awareness, its just as likely to lead to an accumulation of a lifetime of unconcious bias, and baked in prejudgement upon others..

It's just those prejudgements are less likely to be challenged by the comfortable cohort of acquaintances, you've likely built up around yourself.

 

[FishFright]

This is half the problem. People should be able to wear whatever they like, whether it's a male wearing stereotypically female clothing or vice versa. We shouldn't judge them for not passing as looking like a woman, because performing femininity no more makes you a woman than not performing it does. A man in a dress is no less a man than any other man, regardless of how stereotypically feminine he looks.

The end point of this thinking is pressure on youngsters who do not meet society's standards of conformity to question whether they are really a boy because they like pink and dolls, or really a girl because they don't like dresses and make up.

When you read the accounts of detransitioners, especially young women, a common theme is that they were gender non conforming, same sex attracted kids. Somehow they fell down the rabbit hole of thinking that this meant they couldn't be all that and still be women.

Step away from the keyboard.