Gender again. Sorry!

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It would be surprising if French law allowed for the extradition of foreign nationals for statements made outside France, but as the proceedings are only at the stage of 'been reported to the police' we'll have to wait and see.

Makes you wonder why Khelif doesn't do a swab test, prove their sex is female, and sue them for libel.
 

AndyRM

Elder Goth
Probably because she doesn't have to.
 
Khalifa doesn't have to for the purposes of Olympic boxing, because the IOC took it on themselves to accept whatever it says on your
bus pass passport. It would surely strengthen their case though. I say 'case' when in fact all that's happened is Khelif's lawyer has complained to the police, who may or may not decide there is anything worth pursuing.

Edit: I do agree that Khelif has chosen a safe route, whereby the French prosecutor has to do all the work. Khelif probably won't have to disclose the results of the sex tests and this complaint brings no legal or financial risk for them, unlike a libel action.
 
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albion

Guru
I wonder if people like Martina Navratilova were of the same tag.
I say that as she certainly had muscle. Much looks like a witch hunt.
 
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'Assigned' doesn't mean anything.
How did Khelif's body develop to produce high testosterone if they are biologically female?
The overlap between male and female testosterone ranges is practically zero, even in women with hormonal disorders.



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Apart from which, the IBA tests the 2 boxers failed was a karotype test, not a testosterone one. The dsds which would result in a female developmental pathway but with XY karotype are Swyer or certain forms of mosaicism. Women with these conditions don't produce high testosterone levels though.

If we believe the tests to be correct, the most obvious condition is 5-ard, a male dsd. Of course we're all guessing because both boxers decline to clarify.

I wonder if people like Martina Navratilova were of the same tag.
I say that as she certainly had muscle.

Lol. Muscular women aren't men. Navratilova has a transwoman coach for a while, Renee Richards - she couldn't consistently beat Richards even though Richards was 20 plus years older and had never ranked anywhere near as highly.
 

AndyRM

Elder Goth
So someone assigned female at birth, who has lived (as far as I'm aware) her entire life as a woman and has abnormally high testosterone because of her genetic makeup is now a man? Because the sketchy as f*CK IBA says so based on a flawed test (which was outlined in a link I posted ages ago but got ignored)?

Is it any wonder people get frustrated and confused by situations like this? Not really.
 
We know that in countries with poor health care that babies are sometimes born with dsds which go undiagnosed until puberty, and occasionally even later. Being 'assigned' female, even being brought up as a female, doesn't have anything to do with what your biological sex is. How can it? Your sex remains your sex. It's entirely independent of observation or cultural factors.

Males with the 5-ard dsd have normal levels of testosterone for men, not high ones for women. That's because they are genetically male and go through male puberty.

The tests were done by CAS approved labs. Even Khelif's own team are acknowledging there's a 'problem with (Khelif's) chromosomes'.

What's frustrating is the pretence that these are some how 2 cases of some incredibly rare, so far undocumented in medicine, disorder of development in which individuals are female, but with male genetics and high testosterone, as opposed to a well known, well documented, male disorder, in which someone male was mistakenly recorded as female at birth and it didn't come to light until puberty. Of course we'll never know because the boxers refuse to take a test and the IOC refuse to make them.
 
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matticus

Guru
So someone assigned female at birth, who has lived (as far as I'm aware) her entire life as a woman and has abnormally high testosterone because of her genetic makeup is now a man?

Worth considering local factors: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Algeria#
 

monkers

Legendary Member
We know that in countries with poor health care that babies are sometimes born with dsds which go undiagnosed until puberty, and occasionally even later. Being 'assigned' female, even being brought up as a female, doesn't have anything to do with what your biological sex is. How can it? Your sex remains your sex. It's entirely independent of observation or cultural factors.

Males with the 5-ard dsd have normal levels of testosterone for men, not high ones for women. That's because they are genetically male and go through male puberty.

The tests were done by CAS approved labs. Even Khelif's own team are acknowledging there's a 'problem with (Khelif's) chromosomes'.

What's frustrating is the pretence that these are some how 2 cases of some incredibly rare, so far undocumented in medicine, disorder of development in which individuals are female, but with male genetics and high testosterone, as opposed to a well known, well documented, male disorder, in which someone male was mistakenly recorded as female at birth and it didn't come to light until puberty. Of course we'll never know because the boxers refuse to take a test and the IOC refuse to make them.

Yeh but ... what loo should Khelif use at Waterloo Station, and which prison should she serve her life sentence in if she chooses the one that you say she shouldn't? Otherwise is it good enough for Trumpwit Rowling to declare her trans and send her back to Algeria for a life of purgatory?

OK, I'm being as frivolous as you so often are, or exaggerating at least as much; but it seems that you still haven't learnt that testosterone levels alone do not control development. It is also about how testosterone is metabolised by the body. Unlike you I do not claim expertise even though I have read a certain amount. Despite my lack of expertise, I know enough to know that you are still either talking bollocks, or you do know enough but are using falsehoods to try to force a false narrative.

Gender Identity Problems in Children with 5α-RD2 Deficiency

Although some children with this enzyme deficiency are raised as girls, many would change their gender to males at puberty after virilization. There are multiple factors, such as culture and environmental pressures, which can influence the gender changes in these children. Still, the most significant factor responsible for the gender change is the exposure of the child's brain to androgen, including testosterone, and not to the female sex hormone. A brain exposed to androgens develops more masculine behavior and influences the child to identify itself as a male child rather than a female.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK539904/

When I read evidence from the scientific community such as this, and I read your posts here, I'd like to say I'm torn, but really I'm not.

World class performers are without being unkind to them, all freaks, be they male, female or any permutation thereof.

Here is Juga Wang proving that she is beyond being merely human ...


View: https://youtu.be/fdKEUmFUMFg
 
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK539904/

When I read evidence from the scientific community such as this, and I read your posts here, I'd like to say I'm torn, but really I'm not.

That's an overview of the 5-ard dsd that says such individuals are male. It literally says that they are recorded as female due to ambiguous genitalia at birth and then experience male puberty. I have no idea why you think this supports Khelif's case for inclusion in Women's boxing.

Screenshot_20240816_103326_Chrome.jpg

World class performers are without being unkind to them, all freaks, be they male, female or any permutation thereof. Here is Juga Wang proving that she is beyond being merely human ...


View: https://youtu.be/fdKEUmFUMFg


Piano playing? Completely irrelevant.

Stop trying to pretend males with dsd's competing in women's sports is anything other than unfair male advantage. These male 5-ard athletes aren't 'exceptional women', they are men. It's aeons away from Michael Phelps having big feet and the slight advantage one athlete has over another.
 

monkers

Legendary Member
That's an overview of the 5-ard dsd that says such individuals are male. It literally says that they are recorded as female due to ambiguous genitalia at birth and then experience male puberty. I have no idea why you think this supports Khelif's case for inclusion in Women's boxing.

View attachment 6605


Piano playing? Completely irrelevant.

Stop trying to pretend males with dsd's competing in women's sports is anything other than unfair male advantage. These male 5-ard athletes aren't 'exceptional women', they are men. It's aeons away from Michael Phelps having big feet and the slight advantage one athlete has over another.

You are pretending plenty and all the time. Do you have sole rights over pretence? Ah no I forgot Rowling.

Why are you commenting to me on a part of the article that I did not comment on instead of the part that I did? Didn't fit with your no such thing as 'ladybrain' narrative, so skip that part and pretend that I hadn't read or understood another part of the article. You really are too ridiculous for words.

Juga Wang was relevant to my point, regardless of sex or gender identity, world class performers, because they possess something that makes ordinary mortals respect with awe. Juga Wang hasn't got physical exceptions that you can cite; her skills are extraordinary even amongst world class pianists - we don't know why, but we don't look to biology to explain it, we accept her as gifted, beyond merely 'gifted' even. We don't hear other pianists try to dismiss her as an alien even though her playing is other-worldly.

I don't know anything at all about boxing. This much I do know, the commentary from people not prepared to think is that she must have advantage for all the reasons they attack trans women. All I do know about boxing is that there are weight categories. So if this supposed (by some) advantage is due to bigger bone structure, higher muscle mass, longer limbs, etc etc, how come she is still in that weight category and still having an advantage?
 
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Why are you commenting to me on a part of the article that I did not comment on instead of the part that I did? Didn't fit with your no such thing as 'ladybrain' narrative, so skip that part and pretend that I hadn't read or understood another part of the article.
5-ard men aren't trans so what is the lady brain relevance? And transwomen don't have a dsd.

Juga Wang was relevant to my point, regardless of sex or gender identity, world class performers, because they possess something that makes ordinary mortals respect with awe.
Khelif doesn't possess anything special as a boxer. The advantage comes from being male.
We see this all the time with 5-ard athletes winning Women's events with performances that wouldn't get them in the ranking for males. Same with transwomen like Lia Thomas, Laurel Hubbard, and all those US cyclists. They shoot up the rankings when switching to the Women's category.


Juga Wang hasn't got physical exceptions that you can cite; her skills are extraordinary even amongst world class pianists - we don't know why, but we don't look to biology to explain it ..
It's not a sport. Biology doesn't come into it.

All I do know about boxing is that there are weight categories. So if this supposed (by some) advantage is due to bigger bone structure, higher muscle mass, longer limbs, etc etc, how come she is still in that weight category and still having an advantage?

Because a male of the same height and weight, ability, and training, as a female will be significantly stronger, faster, more powerful. We all know this.
 

monkers

Legendary Member
Khelif doesn't possess anything special as a boxer. The advantage comes from being male.

Unknowable.

I don't know that Khelif is 'male', and neither do you.

I don't know that Khelif could not have won gold without being 'male', and neither do you.

This is what happens when your own supposition is judged by you to be superior to absolute knowledge.
 
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