Gender again. Sorry!

[monkers]

The claim was made 'We've seen coroners reports' and that these reports supported the claim that lack of access to puberty blockers was causing suicides amongst young people on the waiting list.

Your invention, ie a lie.

 

[Bromptonaut]

@AuroraSaab if Prevention of Future Deaths Reports made by Coroners in the execution of their duties are not Coroners Reports what do you think a Coroners Report would be?

I'm not, at least now, debating whether the Coroners reports bear out arguments about suicide amongst trans people,

I'm challenging what seems to be stupidity over their nature.

 

[AuroraSaab]

A coroner report is the report made after an unexpected death. Reports to Prevent Future Deaths are additional reports. They aren't the same thing.

The first isn't freely available for public access, the second is.

The point is that claims are repeatedly made that aren't evidenced, including that the NHS suppressed these reports and suppressed the suicide rates. It's irresponsible bs.

 

[AuroraSaab]

You literally said it here. 'As a consequence':

It's an assertion not borne out by the data, stated to be false by leading expert Louis Appleby, and not supported by the coroner comments, even the Prevention of Future Death reports, which rightly highlight the complex nature of suicide and the presence of several factors.

 

[monkers]

A coroner report is the report made after an unexpected death. Reports to Prevent Future Deaths are additional reports. They aren't the same thing.

The first isn't freely available for public access, the second is.

The point is that claims are repeatedly made that aren't evidenced, including that the NHS suppressed these reports and suppressed the suicide rates. It's irresponsible bs.

N here

A pathologist carries out a post-mortem where required to establish cause of death. A coroner investigates the circumstances for the purposes of an inquiry. Where the coroner has further concerns, they are required are to furnish a Report to Prevent Future Deaths.

Should I have taken my own life while living with my parents, a pathologist would have established cause of death, ie, drowning or falling from height. The coroner would investigate the motivation for suicide using input from family, friends, and medical reports.

In my case, the violence of my father was documented as allegations from me, but not proven. It's hypothetical but it's probable that Monkers would have provided anecdotal evidence (permissible) of my allegations and injuries to an inquest.

As I was reaching the age of puberty I was extremely distressed about going through a male puberty. Such is the under-resourcing of the services, that I would not have received treatment in time to prevent it. I would not have continued with my life into adulthood. I have no doubt. Instead I was fortunate, I was cared for by private services. I owe my life to the person who made those services available. You surely must know who that person is.

The pathologist reports are not really relevant. A coroner's report that attributes motivation for suicide as 'an untreated mental health condition' is something but not sufficient to improve gender services. A Report to Prevent Future Deaths, is the very document that is required.

Without devoting time and space on these forums to examine that contents of each and every report, neither of us is in a position to say much more.

However, what is telling is that the evidence exists that these reports were made, and that they went sent on. We also have the evidence of denial of receipt of the reports. The conclusion therefore that there is no evidence is incorrect. The denial is the evidence.

 

[AuroraSaab]

The data does not support the claim that children who do not receive puberty blockers are more likely to kill themselves. It simply does not. The Cass Report found no sound evidence of their benefit in children, such as decreasing suicide. Louis Appleby's review found the data did not support it either, including amongst those over 18 on the waiting list.

We do not base invasive medical treatment, especially in children, on anecdotal evidence. We base it on high quality research and data.

You continually seek to undermine this stance and push the unevidenced 'transition or die' narrative. It's abhorrent.

 

[AuroraSaab]

The pathologist reports are not really relevant. A coroner's report that attributes motivation for suicide as 'an untreated mental health condition' is something but not sufficient to improve gender services. A Report to Prevent Future Deaths, is the very document that is required.

And none of the coroner comments nor the Prevent reports say failure to access drugs or surgery was the cause of deaths. They suggest lack of support, ie long waiting lists, as contributing factors, amongst others.

You continually overstate the evidence.

 

[monkers]

We do not base invasive medical treatment, especially in children, on anecdotal evidence.

Coroner's reports are NOT anecdotal evidence. A flavour from one such report ...

The Coroner issued a report to Prevent Future Deaths to NHS England as follows: a waiting list of 7 years for an appointment at the Gender Identity Clinic is extremely long and exposes the challenge of how those are on the waiting list are to be supported. There was a lack of clarity from the evidence that those working with people awaiting treatment from the gender identity services knew who was responsible for the care of those on the waiting list, whether is it the Gender identity Clinic, the community mental health services or the GP.

The Coroner is enquiring whether the Gender Identity Clinic could do more to assist with training for local services. She was also concerned about the lack of awareness as to when bridging hormones could be prescribed by the GP, and considers the Clinic should ensure their Protocol l is widely accessible to those treating young trans-people who may obtain off-prescription hormones from the internet.

The gender critical movement created pressure on the the services for trans youth. Rather than creating an improvement for trans youth, it has led to a collapse in service.

Just to remind, Cass took the middle ground existence of God approach to puberty blockers - there is insufficient evidence to say they are harmful, there is insufficient evidence to say they are beneficial. Puberty blockers are not the only issue, there were the related assessments for autism, and well as mental health support.

What we do have are reports giving evidence of coroner concern that lack of services will lead to future deaths, with the NHS and government ministers denying that there are concerns.

The potato has been baked too hot for anyone to want to handle.

However Aurora, as usual, you claim to know more than the sum of all working professionals in the field. What exactly is on your CV that is relevant? CSE welding?

 

[Bromptonaut]

And none of the coroner comments nor the Prevent reports say failure to access drugs or surgery was the cause of deaths. They suggest lack of support, ie long waiting lists, as contributing factors, amongst others.

You continually overstate the evidence.

However you look at it people with gender incongruence, especially young people, are over represented in suicide stats.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Coroner's reports are NOT anecdotal evidence. A flavour from one such report ...

I'm not trawling over the report for this individual but you omitted to mention that this young person was also waiting (years) for an autism assessment. The areas of concern reported by the coroner weren't just related to not getting hormones but to lack of local support whilst on the waiting list, confusion over which mental health team were responsible for care, and lack of GP knowledge.

This young person had sourced hormones privately and without NHS medical supervision.

The gender critical movement created pressure on the the services for trans youth. Rather than creating an improvement for trans youth, it has led to a collapse in service.

The pressure came from the huge increase in demand for services from teenagers, especially girls.

Just to remind, Cass took the middle ground existence of God approach to puberty blockers - there is insufficient evidence to say they are harmful, there is insufficient evidence to say they are beneficial.

She did not. She said the evidence of benefit was 'remarkably weak'. You don't turn kids into lifelong medical patients on the basis of 'remarkably weak' evidence. Why do you post this when her comments are easily checkable?

Puberty blockers are not the only issue, there were the related assessments for autism, and well as mental health support.

Yet you have used this young person's death in your list of those who died because the government stopped them getting them - despite the fact that at 24 they were too old anyway.

However Aurora, as usual, you claim to know more than the sum of all working professionals in the field. What exactly is on your CV that is relevant? CSE welding?

And you, as usual, think you know better than Hilary Cass, Louis Appleby, and a host of other medical experts and researchers, whose income doesn't depend on pathologising mental distress in young people.

 

[monkers]

Bollocks ... the below all included in my post...

Coroners words ...

a waiting list of 7 years for an appointment at the Gender Identity Clinic is extremely long and exposes the challenge of how those are on the waiting list are to be supported.

My words ...

Puberty blockers are not the only issue, there were the related assessments for autism, and well as mental health support.

It's shabby of you to keep saying so many had the comorbid condition of autism. The truth is that many had been waiting for an autism assessment and never received them.

This serpentine twisting of facts needs to stop.

 

[AuroraSaab]

However you look at it people with gender incongruence, especially young people, are over represented in suicide stats.

Again, where is the quality data and research that proves this? I'm not talking about a self selecting Stonewall survey.

When you look at the higher prevalence than normal of issues that children referred to the Tavistock had - everything from autism to eating disorders - and you take that into account - there doesn't seem to be strong evidence that these young people are more likely to commit suicide than others with similar non gender related mental health issues.

Young people are impressionable. If you tell them 'You're more likely to kill yourself if you're trans', they will believe you.

Dr. David Bell, former lead psychologist, Tavistock and Portman GIDS:

“…when inaccurate data and alarmist opinion are conveyed very authoritatively to families we have to wonder what the impact would be on children’s understanding of the kind of person they are… and their likely fate.”

 

[monkers]

N here

Young people are impressionable. If you tell them 'You're more likely to kill yourself if you're trans', they will believe you.

You are talking out of your hat. Kindly stop.

 

[monkers]

The idea that Cass is unassailable is for the birds ...

The Cass Review of gender identity services for children and young people has garnered controversy since its publication in April. While welcomed by some, others – including patients, their families, academics, scientists, legal experts, and some members of the British Medical Association – have voiced concerns. In August, the BMA council voted for the BMA to evaluate the Cass Review. More recently, it voted for the BMA to retain a neutral position on the Review until that evaluation has concluded.

https://www.bma.org.uk/news-and-opi...WPJ49K6QXtU94sLxpw_aem_JZxxWZPt1GTYCC9_LUgn0Q

 

[AuroraSaab]

Yes, a review the BMA are undertaking because a small number of activists engineered the committee to support a motion to critique Cass in July. More committee members voted against or abstained on the key anti-Cass motion than voted for it. But as abstentions don't count, it passed.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...p/07/bma-cass-report-gender-identity-services

Since then 870 doctors have signed a letter criticising the BMA for opposing the recommendations of the Cass report.

" ...it was signed by 57 professors and 22 former or current presidents of royal medical colleges and other clinical leaders, among others. Of the 870 signatories, more than two-thirds are BMA members".

https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...allenging-the-bmas-stance-on-puberty-blockers

Other European countries have made their own analysis of their gender services provision and have come to the same conclusions as Cass. Sweden, Finland, Denmark are all adopting a more cautious approach.

Cass isn't some outlier, out of step with everyone else. It's simply that health services are finally looking seriously at the lack of evidence around puberty blockers, and starting to ask why the numbers referred to gender clinics went through the roof in the last 15 years, and why the patients went from mostly older adult men to mostly young teens.

The change in direction to evidence based care must be hard to swallow, but there you go.