Gender again. Sorry!
- Thread starter theclaud
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monkers
Legendary Member
N here AS.
Just arrived home from Europe to have Monkers show me the misrepresentations on matters of law that you have written, along with the abuse of data in order to mischaracterise me and others like me as offenders.
Further to this I note your ongoing lie, that continuing to remind you of correct interpretation of the law can only lead to the conclusion that either Monkers or in favour of encouraging male identifying people into women's spaces is incorrect. In all likelihood a quite deliberate mischaracterisation you are making when your actual argument is disproved.
Monkers could have reminded you that the majority of violence and sexual abuse occurs within the home. While the majority of such offenders tend to be white, male, cisgender, heterosexual, identifying as Christian, and age between 30 and 39, there also does exist a number of people who identify as transgender females who are legally male.
The Equality Report from the Prison Service serves to show that these individuals, when asked, identify as male. I understand that you have a concern that there exists the potential for a transgender female to enter a space with the intent to harm women. That is a legitimate concern, but the test is to balance that potential with probability. A risk assessment. Rather than focussing on potential it is necessary to consider the number of incidents that has led to harm. The number of incidents is known to be a tiny number.
Perhaps you should consider that data more carefully to bring comfort. The potential for harm is always around us, from travel incidents, street crime and what have you. As a potential risk of harm from a trans person in a women only space, the potential is for all reasonable applications and purposes zero. The risk of harm from a transgender woman (legally male to be clear) is perhaps higher but still vanishingly small.
My GRC and my birth certificate together make me female and a woman. I didn't obtain them fraudulently or against the will of parliament. Those identities are not limited to the UK. I frequently travel around Europe without difficulties. They are my legal identity documents, and all other documents flow down from them.
I understand that you hold certain reservations. You have the right to an opinion, likewise I have the right to think your opinion is nonsense.
In the course of my work I have helped put sex offenders away, in one case a transgender woman in an historic offence case. My own approach is somewhat different to Monkers. I hope to assure you that the risks of harm have nothing like the potential as you seem to fear.
Indeed a negative game is resulting whereby more women are reporting being 'transvestigated' by other women in women's spaces with some women saying that they fear entering women's spaces not through fear of meeting a trans woman, but fear of aggressive questioning of cisgender women.
Ian H
Legendary Member
Perhaps we need some music to take our minds off things.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oG6fayQBm9w
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oG6fayQBm9w
AuroraSaab
Shaman
Suddenly, as if by magic, the shopkeeper appeared ....
Ian H
Legendary Member
Sitting in the club this afternoon, reading the New Scientist, I found this.
More Male than Male
In common, we suspect, with most readers, Feedback is casting around for explanations of how the world got into its current position. So we were intrigued by journalist Michael Hobbes's post on the social media site Bluesky, highlighting a 2013 paper in the American Journal of Sociology called "Overdoing Gender: A test of the masculine overcompensation thesis".
The hypothesis is that, when men's maleness is threatened, they overcompensate with "extreme demonstrations of masculinity". For example, when men were told they were feminine, they responded by expressing more support for "dominance hierarchies", and said they wanted more personal power.
They also became more supportive of war and homophobia.
But the bit that got Hobbes's attention, because it's so utterly ridiculous, is that they expressed interest in buying a sports utility vehicle (SUV).
Reading all this, Feedback was to be found staring into space while the faces of prominent people flashed past. We remembered when singer James Blunt was interviewed on Jessie Ware's podcast Table Manners. He admitted that during college days he went on a meat-only diet to prove his manliness and annoy vegan friends - only to be diagnosed with scurvy.
We remembered the many instances of right-wing US men confessing on social media that they did not believe in the existence of the female orgasm because they had never seen a woman experience one.
We remembered Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg trash-talking each other over a proposed cage fight for a year. And we thought those sociologists might have a point.
More Male than Male
In common, we suspect, with most readers, Feedback is casting around for explanations of how the world got into its current position. So we were intrigued by journalist Michael Hobbes's post on the social media site Bluesky, highlighting a 2013 paper in the American Journal of Sociology called "Overdoing Gender: A test of the masculine overcompensation thesis".
The hypothesis is that, when men's maleness is threatened, they overcompensate with "extreme demonstrations of masculinity". For example, when men were told they were feminine, they responded by expressing more support for "dominance hierarchies", and said they wanted more personal power.
They also became more supportive of war and homophobia.
But the bit that got Hobbes's attention, because it's so utterly ridiculous, is that they expressed interest in buying a sports utility vehicle (SUV).
Reading all this, Feedback was to be found staring into space while the faces of prominent people flashed past. We remembered when singer James Blunt was interviewed on Jessie Ware's podcast Table Manners. He admitted that during college days he went on a meat-only diet to prove his manliness and annoy vegan friends - only to be diagnosed with scurvy.
We remembered the many instances of right-wing US men confessing on social media that they did not believe in the existence of the female orgasm because they had never seen a woman experience one.
We remembered Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg trash-talking each other over a proposed cage fight for a year. And we thought those sociologists might have a point.
CXRAndy
Senior Member
There we have it
100,000 who have had surgery suffer more afterwards from suicide, drug abuse, the list goes on
View: https://x.com/JackPosobiec/status/1897674537426128979?t=Pg4OZiZxMMwUaY2GjtPm6w&s=19
100,000 who have had surgery suffer more afterwards from suicide, drug abuse, the list goes on
View: https://x.com/JackPosobiec/status/1897674537426128979?t=Pg4OZiZxMMwUaY2GjtPm6w&s=19
AndyRM
Elder Goth
You can't even read basic stats properly when they're laid out in front of you?!
Also, you helpfully left out the conclusion:
Gender-affirming surgery, while beneficial in affirming gender identity, is associated with increased risk of mental health issues, underscoring the need for ongoing, gender-sensitive mental health support for transgender individuals’ post-surgery.
So, once again, not the slam dunk you think it is.
Also, you helpfully left out the conclusion:
Gender-affirming surgery, while beneficial in affirming gender identity, is associated with increased risk of mental health issues, underscoring the need for ongoing, gender-sensitive mental health support for transgender individuals’ post-surgery.
So, once again, not the slam dunk you think it is.
monkers
Legendary Member
I never open Shithead's links, so thanks for the reveal of some truth from this.
Put simply, though no explanation is quite simple enough for Shithead to understand, trans people experience distress not just because of their position in society but because of the hate they experience due to it. A hate demonstrably propagated by himself and one or two others on the forum.
icowden
Squire
it's also worth pointing out that that study looks at whether those people undergoing surgery are at higher risk of suicidal ideation, substance abuse etc. It does not specifically look at whether surgery is the cause of this, only that there is an association here. It seems likely that people undergoing surgery are people who are already at much higher risk of depression etc - hence they are having surgery. At best what the study seems to suggest is that surgery is not the magic bullet that many people undergoing it think that it might be.
It would be interesting to see an expansion of the study to see what the correlation is between ongoing physical medical problems as a result of surgery and the risk for depression, anxiety, suicidal ideation and substance use disorders. Having surgery to alter your body carries significant risk and there are many stories from those left in chronic pain or difficulty as a result of surgical intervention.
It would be interesting to see an expansion of the study to see what the correlation is between ongoing physical medical problems as a result of surgery and the risk for depression, anxiety, suicidal ideation and substance use disorders. Having surgery to alter your body carries significant risk and there are many stories from those left in chronic pain or difficulty as a result of surgical intervention.
AuroraSaab
Shaman
That's the point though. The only benefit is that it affirms an identity in the short term - there's no long term benefit to mental health. Previous research shows suicide rates go up after surgery. There are higher rates of depression, ptsd too eg:
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11063965/ (2024)
"This study has revealed a significantly elevated prevalence of PTSD in post-operative transgender individuals, with a 7.76-fold increase in comparison to cohort B and a 3.74-fold increased risk compared to cohort C after propensity matching. These findings were consistent with other studies investigated previously".
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11063965/
Of course there is ptsd - after a few years you realise it hasn't solved your problems and your body is irreversibly damaged.
Surgery is treating a mental health problem with a radical, irreversible intervention. We don't treat other variants of body dyphoria or anorexia with surgery to affirm it.
I could post stories of dozens of young men and women who regret their surgery but you lot would still cheer it on. You'd rather listen to trans activists who make their money from promoting this stuff to kids than actual unbiased research.
They face this without surgery though, presumably, so that doesn't wash as a reason for increased depression and suicide post surgery. This research is specifically about those who had surgery - more likely they realised surgery didn't solve their problems and unlike just hormones the effects are completely irreversible.
It wouldn't matter what the research said (the unbiased, high quality research, not the poor quality crap done by grifting pro trans medics), you lads on here would cheer on these surgeries.
Edit: should have said that the effects of cross sex hormones aren't all irreversible either, especially in women eg facial hair, deep voice, and are also associated with increased health risks eg cardiac risk and thyroid cancer in males who take estrogen.
https://health.ucdavis.edu/news/hea...mon-among-transgender-female-veterans/2023/10
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monkers
Legendary Member
You and your band of hate are the real problem. Leave trans people alone, free them from hate, watch them flourish.
AuroraSaab
Shaman
They've never been more celebrated, more protected, more pandered to. And they still have higher rates of suicide and depression and all cause mortality. It's because their issues are psychological and aren't fixed by powerful drugs or surgery but by accepting themselves as they are. This is what you should be encouraging but you'd rather promote irreversible interventions on children and Frankenstein surgeries.
A pro trans doctor got millions of dollars to research outcomes of puberty blockers and then wouldn't publish it because there was no evidence of benefit. You keep pushing this 'trans kids' narrative. They don't exist. You push it because otherwise it's a movement that primarily exists to get adult men into women's spaces. That's a lot harder to sell to the public than distressed kids.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/23/science/puberty-blockers-olson-kennedy.html
A pro trans doctor got millions of dollars to research outcomes of puberty blockers and then wouldn't publish it because there was no evidence of benefit. You keep pushing this 'trans kids' narrative. They don't exist. You push it because otherwise it's a movement that primarily exists to get adult men into women's spaces. That's a lot harder to sell to the public than distressed kids.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/23/science/puberty-blockers-olson-kennedy.html
monkers
Legendary Member
You're farking kidding right? You are somebody who has spent most of your free time seemingly tirelessly campaigning against the rights of trans people, right down to celebrating exclusion from playing board games and taking part in Park Run.
What you've done is help to create a hostile environment where trans people have become afraid to leave the house. In the USA it is now tantamount to genocide.
But it isn't only trans women who have been thrown under the bus. As I warned you the campaign has had a negative effect on all women.
Your happy band of haters are setting back the rights, freedoms and protections of women and girls by decades. There's always a price to bogotry.
AuroraSaab
Shaman
It's not a right for men to be in women's single sex spaces, sports, and services. I'm going to campaign against that until the cows come home.
I'm also going to campaign for evidence based health care for children and young people.
Women aren't harmed by having spaces away from men or fairness in sports. You can get all hyperbolic about Nazis and fascists all you like, your emotional blackmail and forced teaming isn't working.
More gender news. Ruling by Press Watchdog this week says accurate sex based language is acceptable. It's nuts that calling a man playing on a women's football team a 'biological male' should have ever been contentious in the first place.
https://archive.ph/Z9V19
I'm also going to campaign for evidence based health care for children and young people.
Women aren't harmed by having spaces away from men or fairness in sports. You can get all hyperbolic about Nazis and fascists all you like, your emotional blackmail and forced teaming isn't working.
More gender news. Ruling by Press Watchdog this week says accurate sex based language is acceptable. It's nuts that calling a man playing on a women's football team a 'biological male' should have ever been contentious in the first place.
https://archive.ph/Z9V19
