Gender again. Sorry!

[monkers]

Why would they care about the Cass report which was commissioned solely for the use of the NHS England?

They are far more likely to be overriding the executive orders because they are not legal and because there will be great pressure from the pharmaceutical companies and insurers who make a lot of money from giving people drugs.

You make very fair points Ian. Cass has given golden fodder to bigots. Cass is not a paediatric endocrinologist. Her speciality is or was as a consultant of neuro-disability.

This is not a subject that can be reduced to the length of post that we might make here, and I have written about this before in some detail in the mists of time.

The lack of ''quality'' evidence relates to to the type of clinical research that can be carried out. However it has to be understood that research has to be carried out within ethical guidance. When it comes to research into puberty blockers a grade 1 study is impossible because it can not meet ethical standards. Therefore Cass sets out an impossible task. In other areas of medicine, where a grade 1 study, ie one with a double blind study compared with a control group using a significant number of subjects is impossible, a different approach is taken such as a longitudinal study, but that take many years.

It's a long read, but here is a document worth the effort. It is the oral evidence of consultant endocrinologist answering questions at the Women and Equalities Committee in Parliament. It reiterates the points I have previously made regarding the contest between ethical standards and standard research methodology in regard to puberty blockers, but does so much more eloquently.

https://committees.parliament.uk/oralevidence/15271/default/

 

[monkers]

You've spent this entire thread putting forward arguments why men should be in women's spaces, especially sports and prisons.

Entirely false. What I have done is debunked your frequent false claims.

You have claimed that Park Run is a gendered sport, flying in the face of what the organisers have said.

You've advocated for trans women being excluded from games of chess and pub games using the flimsiest of arguments.

I haven't argued that transgender women should be housed in women's prisons. What I have done is shown that you are telling lies by saying that transgender prisoners who are legally male are housed in the female prison estate - they are not.

 

[CXRAndy]

You have claimed that Park Run is a gendered sport, flying in the face of what the organisers have said.

Until last year Park run placed TiMs in the women's table for fastest times.

Only from the backlash that Parkrun decided to stop publishing run times

That was their way of sidestepping the issue, instead of placing males in the male table for results. Probably because it was the cheapest and easiest way to swat away the contentious issue.

 

[monkers]

UK, Sweden, France, Denmark ... all made independent reviews and decided there was no good evidence of benefit. Belgium has just ordered a review now too.

Puberty blockers are just one case where it is impossible to conduct research that meets the ethical standards. This is for a number of reasons, including:
it is not ethical to experimentally prescribe puberty blockers to the control group; ie children who do not experience gender dysphoria
it is not ethical to experimentally prescribe placebos to children to children who do experience gender dysphoria
the test can not be double blind since those children on placebos would know since they will go through a typical puberty.

In these circumstances, clinical researchers must use other methods such as longitudinal studies.

Offering Kiera Bell is not 'evidence' that puberty blockers are dangerous or non-reversible.

Puberty blockers are prescribed for other clinical applications without the same evidence requirement demanded by Cass.

You've seen me write all this before, so I know I'm wasting my time, so I'll end there.

 

[monkers]

Until last year Park run placed TiMs in the women's table for fastest times.

Park Run is not elite level sport, or even amateur sport - it's a social event. But as usual some people tend to make everything a competition.

But you are a TaM banging on about ''Tims''. (TaM = thick as mince).

 

[AuroraSaab]

The argument from that document is 'Well it (puberty blockers) doesn't seem to do them any harm'. As there are few high quality, long term studies, we don't actually know. Some research suggests it does cause harm and that the effects are irreversible.

The Cass review found there was no evidence of benefit. The benchmark for powerful intervention in children should never be 'Well it doesn't seem to do them any harm'.

You've basically just admitted it's not possible to do high quality ethical research into giving puberty blockers to children. Yet you support giving them to kids anyway.

Entirely false. What I have done is debunked your frequent false claims.

To what end? To get men into women's spaces and services. You've spent the whole thread trying to convince us.

You have claimed that Park Run is a gendered sport, flying in the face of what the organisers have said.

It is an event that recorded by category eg sex and age, otherwise they wouldn't record times at all, or celebrate achievements by age. The organisers caved and stopped recording rather than have fair categories for women.

You've advocated for trans women being excluded from games of chess and pub games using the flimsiest of arguments.

Pro pool and pro darts isn't a pub game. How typically condescending of you to call it that. Women deserve fairness in all competitions and at all levels. Women only competitions seek to open opportunities in areas where women have been historically underrepresented. It's not necessarily just about male advantage.

Women are allowed to have their own stuff.

I haven't argued that transgender women should be housed in women's prisons. What I have done is shown that you are telling lies by saying that transgender prisoners who are legally male are housed in the female prison estate - they are not.

You have, constantly. Men are no longer in the female estate because women campaigned to stop it. Some men with a GRC might still be; hopefully that will change too.

 

[CXRAndy]

Park Run is not elite level sport, or even amateur sport - it's a social event. But as usual some people tend to make everything a competition.

But you are a TaM banging on about ''Tims''. (TaM = thick as mince).

It doesn't matter, what level it is, male and female results should reflect that.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Puberty blockers are prescribed for other clinical applications without the same evidence requirement demanded by Cass.

Giving them for precocious puberty, eg 8 year old girls having periods, is very different for giving them to a child for a psychological condition from age 11 to 18. They are often given to children with precocious puberty for months only and rarely to boys.

Even so there are concerns about the long term effects on these children, with issues only coming to light decades later.

 

[CXRAndy]

She wasn't ''transed'' by her parents

Interesting you should say that. It seems to be a common theme with young children and parents creating mental issues for the child

 

[AuroraSaab]

https://www.gbnews.com/news/world/brazil-news-mum-daughter-transition-public-healthcare

The child (was) transitioned to a girl at age 4. The mother transitioned to male last year.

Apart from the Munchausens element - having a trans kid gets you a lot of attention - it can be quite lucrative. 24k followers on Instagram and TikTok can be monitarised. Other families - like the Joly family with a child who transitioned at 7 - have 1 million followers.

Going to be very hard for those kids to walk back all that investment and expectation should they decide they aren't in the wrong body after all.

 

[multitool]

You and your band of hate are the real problem. Leave trans people alone, free them from hate, watch them flourish.

Yep.

No wonder there are high rates of suicide after transition.

Exactly the same reason as higher rates of suicide in the gay community and higher rates of mental illness in the black community. It's because they have to endure the behaviour of bigots trying to get into their lives.

Look how readily Aurora starts squealing when I call her a bigot. (which she is). Imagine how her mental health would be if she couldn't even leave her house without people in the street calling her a paedo etc.

 

[monkers]

The argument from that document is 'Well it (puberty blockers) doesn't seem to do them any harm'. As there are few high quality, long term studies, we don't actually know. Some research suggests it does cause harm and that the effects are irreversible.

The Cass review found there was no evidence of benefit. The benchmark for powerful intervention in children should never be 'Well it doesn't seem to do them any harm'.

You've basically just admitted it's not possible to do high quality ethical research into giving puberty blockers to children. Yet you support giving them to kids anyway.

What I have done is repeated what I've been saying the whole time. If you are the rule setter (Cass for example) and say that only these classes of research are Grade 1 or ''high quality'' then you get to ignore everything else.

The job of evaluating their effectiveness really ought to fall to a specialist consultant of paediatric endocrinology. Instead the job wasn't advertised, and an appointment was made behind closed doors - it was a stitch up - like Faulkner it was a political appointment made by those with known anti-trans sentiments.

Double blind research is not the only valid means of doing research; many other clinical trials are conducted, and accepted, when other methodologies are employed.

Not only do consultant clinicians prescribe many other drugs variously off-licence or off-label occasionally, they do it frequently. It is for them to use medicines using their experience and judgement. It is not for amateurs like us to decide.

Because in this country under 16s can not give consent to be on a trial, then the whole ethical basis for any double blind research on children is therefore unethical by definition.

This means that only other studies such as longitudinal studies are valid, and they become the most high quality anyway because they measure long-term rather than short term outcomes.

It's always the same with you, your ignorance and refusal to approach the subject with anything other than bias makes you an absolutist, which by definition rules you out of discussion or debate.

Further to any of this, the evidence such as it is, shows that where puberty blockers are prescribed for other conditions, there does not seem to be evidence of long-term harm such as infertility, or even to bone development since bones continue to develop into the mid-twenties.

 

[monkers]

Giving them for precocious puberty, eg 8 year old girls having periods, is very different for giving them to a child for a psychological condition from age 11 to 18. They are often given to children with precocious puberty for months only and rarely to boys.

Read the article. Listen to the actual experts. I learnt from this report that 'precocious puberty' is no longer a preferred term.

But actually do attempt to understand that there are a range of conditions where puberty blockers are used, that these same drugs are used without the unethical double blind randomised testing. Any evidence for these applications is evidence also for use with trans kids. But of course you will eliminate these facts and just keep on saying any kids but trans kids can have them safely regardless of what specialist consultants of paediatric endocrinology tell you.

 

[CXRAndy]

Further to any of this, the evidence such as it is, shows that where puberty blockers are prescribed for other conditions, there does not seem to be evidence of long-term harm such as infertility, or even to bone development since bones continue to develop into the mid-twenties.

 

[monkers]

View attachment 7505

Next time your children need medical attention, I strongly recommend that you just a bot what to do and treat them yourself. What could possibly go wrong?